[Trade] DeBrincat (4 x $7.875mil AAV) to DET for Kubalik, Sebrango, cond 1st, 4th

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Or why not use his actual career stats and say he is a 52 point player per 82 games played.

Cause it doesn’t really make that much of a difference. Flames weren’t going to recoup the cost they paid for Toffoli and knew it. The Sens did not expect to flip DeBrincat. The situations aren’t really comparable.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I don't have much problem with the value the Flames got in the Toffoli deal.
They got a good season + of performance out of him, for a late 1st, B level prospect and late pick.
And then they recoupled a portion of that value in the deal they just made.
On the whole, I don't have much problem with that. Including because the Flames were in the midst of a really good season and thought they had a real chance at a run. It didn't happen but doesn't mean the deal was a bad one.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Cause it doesn’t really make that much of a difference. Flames weren’t going to recoup the cost they paid for Toffoli and knew it. The Sens did not expect to flip DeBrincat. The situations aren’t really comparable.

I was agreeing with you actually the other poster said lets use his last 4 seasons and make him a 65 points player.

Historically Toffoli is actually in the 40ish range and has only two seasons of 50 or more points.

The trade was fine when it happened, the market is soft now we got the best return possible and didn't concede much in terms of 5v5 production.

Ottawa got hosed.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I was agreeing with you actually the other poster said lets use his last 4 seasons and make him a 65 points player.

Historically Toffoli is actually in the 40ish range and has only two seasons of 50 or more points.

The trade was fine when it happened, the market is soft now we got the best return possible and didn't concede much in terms of 5v5 production.

Ottawa got hosed.

lol meant to quote Gavey. If you Olympic average his career he is 45 points bang on

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I was agreeing with you actually the other poster said lets use his last 4 seasons and make him a 65 points player.

Historically Toffoli is actually in the 40ish range and has only two seasons of 50 or more points.

The trade was fine when it happened, the market is soft now we got the best return possible and didn't concede much in terms of 5v5 production.

Ottawa got hosed.

In summary, Flames did great in a soft trade market and the Sens got hosed because the market was no longer soft.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

In summary, Flames did great in a soft trade market and the Sens got hosed because the market was no longer soft.

1 player is 31 coming off a career year the other is a 26 year old with 2 40 goal seasons under his belt another 30 goal season and a couple of 25 plus.

They are not comparable DeBrincat is the much better player.

40 goal scorers in their prime should return more.

[FlamesAddiction]

Age matters too. Toffoli probably doesn't have many, if an any, career years ahead of him. His extension is not quite as straight forward. DeBrincat is young enough that he could have a few more career years ahead of him. His value should be a lot higher than Toffoli's.

I actually don't think the Sens made out that badly.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Why say Toffoli is a 30-45 point guy when he has been a 65 point guy per 82 games played over the past 3 seasons.

For the same reason that no one says that Darnell Nurse is actually a +20-goal, +55-point defenseman on the basis of that one year playing in the "Canadian Division."

LOL.

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[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

In summary, Flames did great in a soft trade market and the Sens got hosed because the market was no longer soft.

So teams should never trade for rentals? Both teams hit a soft trade market but the Flames paid deadline prices for a player in a season where they finished first in their division and then recouped some assets. The Sens paid a premium price for a 'core' player in a season where they finished bottom 10, that was never going to sign with them, and tehn took a downgrade on every asset they traded.

Are you just mad that they acquired Toffoli or think they didn't get enough? Toffoli probably gets a late first at the deadline if he has another good season.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

In summary, Flames did great in a soft trade market and the Sens got hosed because the market was no longer soft.

It was just a bad comparison

Flames were a first place team going all in

Sens were a bottom 5 team

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bonded

So teams should never trade for rentals? Both teams hit a soft trade market but the Flames paid deadline prices for a player in a season where they finished first in their division and then recouped some assets. The Sens paid a premium price for a 'core' player in a season where they finished bottom 10, that was never going to sign with them, and tehn took a downgrade on every asset they traded.

Are you just mad that they acquired Toffoli or think they didn't get enough? Toffoli probably gets a late first at the deadline if he has another good season.

I think both trades were perfectly fine in a soft market. Both trades are similar in that both teams got less for the player than they gave up. One difference is that it is likely that the Sens use the cap space gained to acquire another player so their trade is not really complete yet.

Some feel that the Sens got fleeced for getting less than they gave up. Others feel the Flames did fine in a similar situation.

The difference between a late first, mid second, a fifth and Tyler Pitlick vs Yegor and a third is similar to the difference between 7th, 39th and a third vs. A first, a former 3rd, a 4th and Kubalik. Both teams got roughly the same amount less going out than coming in.

Yegor and Kubalik will likely have similar production, with Kubalik being slightly less expensive. If those two are assumed to be relatively equal then to compare two trades it is a question of what is worse, turning a late 1st, mid 2nd and a 5th into a 3rd or turning an early first, mid 2nd and a third into a 1st and a 4th. Seems pretty similar to me.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Depends on the value you associate with top 10 picks.
Kevin Korchinski may end up being the best player in the deal. There is a lot of constant commentary on this site about the value of high picks, so I think turning 7th, mid 2nd and third into a 1st and 4th is MUCH worse, depending on where that pick ends up but it's got a lot of protection built in for the Wings.

To look at another way: the Habs picked Filip Mesar with the pick they got in the Toffoli deal. I think he's got 3rd line upside at best. The other guys picked around him are similar: Flip Bystedt, Jiri Kulich, Maveric Lamoureux. And then you have Brad Lambert at 30 who has some real upside. But I honestly don't think 5 years from now, or 10 years from now we will be lamenting the loss of those players, like we do other bad Flame trades.

But there's a good chance Ottawa fans will be looking at Korchinski with envy.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Also can we all be thankful that the Sens picked Tyler Boucher at 10 in 2021, so Coronato would be there for the Flames?

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Also can we all be thankful that the Sens picked Tyler Boucher at 10 in 2021, so Coronato would be there for the Flames?

He seems like he’s going to be good. We need someone with a nose for the net.


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[memphusk]

I hope Toffoli gets 100 points in New Jersey this year and someone gives him a big contract. I really want this to happen.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by memphusk

I hope Toffoli gets 100 points in New Jersey this year and someone gives him a big contract. I really want this to happen.

*monkey paw curls* The Flames sign him to a 8x8

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

We just traded a 1st rounder, a #43 overall pick, a fifth rounder and a scrub to get a player that we turned around and traded 16 months for a 3rd rounder and a 30-45 point guy.

The Sens traded a 7th overall and a 39th overall pick and a 3rd round pick for a guy that they traded 12 months later for a 1st, a 4th, a #63 pick and a 30-45 point guy.

These trades that look brutal can happen to any team.

Maybe it is just me being my optimistic self but when I watch video on Yegor Sharangovich my biggest dislike of this trade is the extension that walks him to UFA because this guy has a serious chance to pop if they play him with Huby. Not only does he have the best wrist shot on this roster now but watch where he scores his goals from and th areas he gets to. Combine that with a LS playing on his off wing for quick releases and I would put him on the top RW spot all freakin day. Hell, even if the Flames traded for Nylander I would use Nylander on the 2nd line RW spot with Kadri and Mangiapane because Nylander can literally drive his own line and make magic happen. Sharangovich though, that guy looks custom built for Huberdeau. I would be willing to bet a substantial amount of cash that 5 on 5 he would outscore Toffoli next year if he plays with Huby. That is why I don't like the 2 year deal, if he knocks in 30+ and the talent is there to do so, what does the next extension look like? Could be costly.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Depends on the value you associate with top 10 picks.
Kevin Korchinski may end up being the best player in the deal. There is a lot of constant commentary on this site about the value of high picks, so I think turning 7th, mid 2nd and third into a 1st and 4th is MUCH worse, depending on where that pick ends up but it's got a lot of protection built in for the Wings.

To look at another way: the Habs picked Filip Mesar with the pick they got in the Toffoli deal. I think he's got 3rd line upside at best. The other guys picked around him are similar: Flip Bystedt, Jiri Kulich, Maveric Lamoureux. And then you have Brad Lambert at 30 who has some real upside. But I honestly don't think 5 years from now, or 10 years from now we will be lamenting the loss of those players, like we do other bad Flame trades.

But there's a good chance Ottawa fans will be looking at Korchinski with envy.

You are probably right on that (that the Flames won’t be looking back and wondering what if like Flames fans do every time Dobson touches the puck). Kulich will be the best player out of that group, if the Flames were somehow able to swing a Hanifin to Buffalo trade I would love to see him coming back. Put up 46 points in 62 games as an 18 year old in the AHL and was a PPG in 12 playoffs games in his first season in North America . Similar numbers to Zary but he is 4 years younger. As a center Kulich is stuck behind some pretty good centers in Buffalo and may be expendable.

[Mitch]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Also can we all be thankful that the Sens picked Tyler Boucher at 10 in 2021, so Coronato would be there for the Flames?

Just looked at Boucher's stats - what on earth happened to him? I didn't really follow that draft but a forward picked in the top 10 that hasn't even hit PPG in the OHL in his D+1 or D+2 years is pretty abysmal.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Just looked at Boucher's stats - what on earth happened to him? I didn't really follow that draft but a forward picked in the top 10 that hasn't even hit PPG in the OHL in his D+1 or D+2 years is pretty abysmal.

He is a big body who skates well and throws big hits. He will play as a 3rd or 4th liner I suspect but he won’t be a top 6 guy.