Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Jacks]

"Certified compostable bags may be offered at check out at retail stores in jurisdictions where a public composting program is available.

There, just fixed the legislation.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

These compostable bags do sound like a good alternative and I agree they should be excluded if they work as is said here - but they should cost you $$ to buy.

They do charge for every bag but the total cost is similar to what it costs to buy Glad compost bags so they're well worth it. It says this in the article.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jacks

"Certified compostable bags may be offered at check out at retail stores in jurisdictions where a public composting program is available.

There, just fixed the legislation.


They do charge for every bag but the total cost is similar to what it costs to buy Glad compost bags so they're well worth it. It says this in the article.

It’s not just a cost thing. The compostable Co-op grocery bags simply work better as compost bags to use in your compost bin. You can use the handles to hoist out the compost and tie off the bag.

I try to bring by own bag to the grocery store. But when I forget, I’m happy enough to get a grocery bag that I can use for the compost.

[Jacks]

I agree, use them all the time, they fit a little bit better too.. I don't bring bags to the store, I just buy these because I'm going to use the bags in my compost bin anyway. I have a back up box of Glad ones for when I run out.

[opendoor]

But what % of those bags actually end up getting used that way?

No one's buying Glad compost bags to use for other things, so almost all of them will end up where they're supposed to in commercial composting facilities. Whereas a compostable grocery bag is probably far more likely to end up in a landfill or in the environment where it won't really break down.

Lots of single-use things can be reused for other purposes, and that's great. But if only a tiny percentage of them are actually getting re-used, then we have to effectively treat them as single-use items that will end up in a landfill or in nature. And if in that respect compostable grocery bags don't provide a whole lot of benefit over the alternatives, then they're not necessarily providing any environmental benefit.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s not just a cost thing. The compostable Co-op grocery bags simply work better as compost bags to use in your compost bin. You can use the handles to hoist out the compost and tie off the bag.

I try to bring by own bag to the grocery store. But when I forget, I’m happy enough to get a grocery bag that I can use for the compost.

Except the Coop bags are littered with holes in the bottom. Not sure if it by design or what, but you have to either double bag them in the bin, or line them with something else (paper tower) or end up with a leaky mess.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But what % of those bags actually end up getting used that way?

No one's buying Glad compost bags to use for other things, so almost all of them will end up where they're supposed to in commercial composting facilities. Whereas a compostable grocery bag is probably far more likely to end up in a landfill or in the environment where it won't really break down.

Lots of single-use things can be reused for other purposes, and that's great. But if only a tiny percentage of them are actually getting re-used, then we have to effectively treat them as single-use items that will end up in a landfill or in nature. And if in that respect compostable grocery bags don't provide a whole lot of benefit over the alternatives, then they're not necessarily providing any environmental benefit.

Well according to the article (and I've heard the same elsewhere) they contain no plastic and break down on their own, in perfect dry storage conditions they start falling apart inside a year.

The bags do not contain plastic.


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“I started this company about seven years ago because I really, really hate single-use plastics and loathe their existence,” said Jerry Gao, who was quoted earlier this year in the Calgary Herald. “I think they’re some of the worst things we’ve created out of convenience. So the mission statement of the company has always been to get rid of single-use plastics.”
Gao's bags are made with a fully biodegradable polymer and polylactic acid, which is a "plastic substitute made from fermented corn starch." Even the ink used in the product is vegetable-based.
The bags decompose within 10-45 days in a composting facility. And there's no particular evidence that they would last very long in a landfill or on the side of a road, either.
Gao noted that the bags don't even have a long shelf life.
“We have really good storage conditions in Calgary because it’s dry and cool. But even that, within a year, the bags will start coming apart."

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Well according to the article (and I've heard the same elsewhere) they contain no plastic and break down on their own, in perfect dry storage conditions they start falling apart inside a year.

Unless they've got some groundbreaking polymer that basically no one else uses, PLA-based bags don't break down very easily unless they're subjected to the right conditions like you'd find in industrial compost facilities. And I'm sure they work great in that scenario. But if only (just using a made up number) 1 in 50 bags actually ends up there, then the compostable aspect of them isn't all that beneficial.

People look at this from their own perspective; basically "I can either reuse this grocery bag I already have for compost, or I can go buy a box of single-use compost bags". And sure, from that perspective using the grocery bags is better. But that logic only holds on a population-wide level if the vast majority of bags get used that way, but that's never going to happen.

[Jacks]

1 in 50?
That seems like a ridiculous assumption.

Calgary has a city wide composting program. Coop is a Calgary store. Customers of Coop (or at least the vast majority I imagine) understand that they are compost bags. When you buy them at the check out it even says "how many compostable bags do you need?". I would imagine that it's not even close to 1 in 50.

Besides, with this legislation they can still sell the bags but now they have to sell them in a package which just adds a layer of waste.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But what % of those bags actually end up getting used that way?

No one's buying Glad compost bags to use for other things, so almost all of them will end up where they're supposed to in commercial composting facilities. Whereas a compostable grocery bag is probably far more likely to end up in a landfill or in the environment where it won't really break down.

Lots of single-use things can be reused for other purposes, and that's great. But if only a tiny percentage of them are actually getting re-used, then we have to effectively treat them as single-use items that will end up in a landfill or in nature. And if in that respect compostable grocery bags don't provide a whole lot of benefit over the alternatives, then they're not necessarily providing any environmental benefit.

Everyone I know who shops at Co-op says they use the grocery bags as their compost bags. We were just talking at work last week about why you would ever buy the inferior, dedicated Glad compost bags.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Everyone I know who shops at Co-op says they use the grocery bags as their compost bags. We were just talking at work last week about why you would ever buy the inferior, dedicated Glad compost bags.

I buy them because they fit perfectly into the compost container the city provided, and it's like .10 per day to use them

[Jason14h]

I don’t think I’ve ever thrown a co op bag in anything but the green bin .

Why would you ? What are people putting into bags that isn’t compostable

These aren’t suited to be lunch bags , etc

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1672364922263437315

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Jacks

1 in 50?
That seems like a ridiculous assumption.

Calgary has a city wide composting program. Coop is a Calgary store. Customers of Coop (or at least the vast majority I imagine) understand that they are compost bags. When you buy them at the check out it even says "how many compostable bags do you need?". I would imagine that it's not even close to 1 in 50.

Besides, with this legislation they can still sell the bags but now they have to sell them in a package which just adds a layer of waste.

Yeah, that number is probably way off. But even if it's 1 in 3, it's still probably not really providing any real benefit vs. paper or reusable bags.

And yeah, a reasonable person can say "why would you put those bags anywhere but the compost?". But a reasonable person also wouldn't litter or contaminate recycling with garbage, but enough people do that all that time to create issues, so you have to enact policy to suit the lowest common denominator.

I don't know why we don't see more paper bags with handles in Canada. They're everywhere in California grocery stores. They're a bit more expensive and have their environmental downsides because of the resources needed to make them, but there's no risk of plastic or plastic-like material breaking down into small parts and getting into things (bodies of water, storm drains, etc.).

[PsYcNeT]

Good policy. I'm sure cons will spin this as a bad thing because idk more foreigners or diluting opportunity for Old Stock or something.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1673809319110819843

[TorqueDog]

One catch is that tech salaries in the US are appreciably higher than in Canada.

Sauce: Levels.fyi

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

One catch is that tech salaries in the US are appreciably higher than in Canada.

Sauce: Levels.fyi

With the rate the US is booting out H1-B holders I don't think that matters much.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

One catch is that tech salaries in the US are appreciably higher than in Canada.

Sauce: Levels.fyi

Salary doesn't matter if you're shot in the head for getting lost and ringing a doorbell, or shot by the cops because they're racist pricks.

Probably going to be more than few people that don't want to live in the dystopian nightmare the US is becoming.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Salary doesn't matter if you're shot in the head for getting lost and ringing a doorbell, or shot by the cops because they're racist pricks.

Probably going to be more than few people that don't want to live in the dystopian nightmare the US is becoming.

Yes, like women.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Salary doesn't matter if you're shot in the head for getting lost and ringing a doorbell, or shot by the cops because they're racist pricks.

Probably going to be more than few people that don't want to live in the dystopian nightmare the US is becoming.

There’s 350 million people in the USA. There is a significant amount of them that never worry about gun violence.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Good policy. I'm sure cons will spin this as a bad thing because idk more foreigners or diluting opportunity for Old Stock or something.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1673809319110819843

Good policy overall and we should fast track immigrants and even Canadians who have the work experience and credentials amongst all industries and jobs.

I do wonder though about the ethics of Canada and other western nations always going to the poorer countries for their healthcare workers constantly. Countries will always compete for talent and resources but we can't just rely on foreign trained healthcare workers. We should do a better job of education and promoting our own citizens to becoming healthcare workers.