Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Firebot]

As I stated, if it's all purely coincidental timing and a misunderstanding and nothing nefarious was behind the redactions, hopefully RCMP corrects their mistake and provides the unredacted documents as requested and expedites the request out of goodwill gesture. No harm no foul.

Hopefully Democratic Watch doesn't need to wait another 10 months+ for the documents (and it looks like their initial request prior to 2022 was left unanswered).

[Azure]

I'm sorry, but you don't make a 'oops my bad, turns out we're not actually doing that' statement when someone asks whether or not you are investigating the Prime Minister of Canada, without some serious questions being asked.

Good Lord.

[monkeyman]

Some people seem more upset about the report than they do about the actual obstruction of justice.

[FlamesAddiction]

Former PM Brian Mulroney defends Justin Trudeau as PM.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bri...rash-1.6882315

Former prime minister Brian Mulroney mounted a defence of one of his successors Monday, saying Justin Trudeau has delivered on the "big ticket items" and history won't look kindly on Parliament Hill denizens who push "trash ... rumours" and "gossip."

Speaking at the Atlantic Economic Forum, a symposium at St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish, N.S., the former Progressive Conservative prime minister said the Liberal Trudeau has had a good run in office. He praised the government's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, its renegotiation of NAFTA and its ongoing support for Ukraine in its war with Russia.

"I have learned over the years that history is unconcerned with the trivia and the trash of rumours and gossip floating around Parliament Hill. History is only concerned with the big ticket items that have shaped the future of Canada," Mulroney said.

He said Trudeau and the premiers "conducted themselves as well as anybody else in the world" in dealing with COVID, something Mulroney called "the greatest challenge that any prime minister has dealt with in Canada in 156 years."

[Azure]

Makes you wonder if he is in on the corruption.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Azure

Makes you wonder if he is in on the corruption.

Or, and hear me out here, he is just saying what he thinks.

[Fuzz]

Everyone loves a good rant, right? Jen Gerson dresses down the feds today...

This #### — this, right here.
This. ####.
This is why we hate you.
This is why we ####ing hate you.

Nobody outside the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle sees a headline like "New Initiative from Ottawa!" and thinks: "Oh, how exciting. I'm so keen to see what grand notion those crafty MPs in Ottawa have cooked up now! Come, Maude, let us settle ourselves before the The National at Six so we can understand how our fine federal government is working to make our lives better."

The plastics ban, which will take effect at the end of the year, doesn’t even ban the bags outright. Because, of course, they’re just compost bags. But as of Dec. 20, we’ll have to buy the bags in bundles, discard the unnecessary packaging they will come in, and then put our groceries in them. So we’re still allowed to purchase the bags, use them to pack our groceries, and then carry our food out of the store, but CO-OP will have set the product up to make the process of bagging our groceries marginally less convenient and considerably more wasteful. Because #### us in particular, I guess? This is a compromise that somehow manages to make the whole prohibition look even more rage-inducing and inane.

https://theline.substack.com/p/jen-g...s-dont-contain


You probably want to read it at the link, so you get the full glory of all the profanity we can't use here.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Everyone loves a good rant, right? Jen Gerson dresses down the feds today...


https://theline.substack.com/p/jen-g...s-dont-contain


You probably want to read it at the link, so you get the full glory of all the profanity we can't use here.

While she seems hung up on the "plastics" terminology, I found the response from the government..

“These bio-based plastics are currently problematic to manage at their end of life, which is why they are captured under the prohibition,” said Lafontaine. “Compostable plastics are currently screened out by most organics recycling facilities and sent to landfill, due to longer biodegradation times than food and yard waste; they contaminate recycling streams; and they have not proven to perform better than conventional plastics when littered on land or in water.”

These seem like reasonable issues, and very similar to the problems brought on by plastic bags.

I haven't seen the data on their end of life, how long they take to decompose, if anywhere other than the City of Calgary allows them to be put into a green bin. But if it is going to cause the issues identified, then yeah, they should be part of the ban.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by belsarius

While she seems hung up on the "plastics" terminology, I found the response from the government..



These seem like reasonable issues, and very similar to the problems brought on by plastic bags.

I haven't seen the data on their end of life, how long they take to decompose, if anywhere other than the City of Calgary allows them to be put into a green bin. But if it is going to cause the issues identified, then yeah, they should be part of the ban.

Sure, but I'm sure they could have exceptions that make sense. I've just used my last plastic shopping bag as a garbage bag, as I've been doing for years. So now I need to go buy some, plastic or compostable. But having them be dual use, as a shopping bag first just makes sense. And if our city program can handle it, why shouldn't they? No logical reason. And perhaps other cities, seeing the success of Calgary's methods, might copy it.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by belsarius

While she seems hung up on the "plastics" terminology, I found the response from the government..



These seem like reasonable issues, and very similar to the problems brought on by plastic bags.

I haven't seen the data on their end of life, how long they take to decompose, if anywhere other than the City of Calgary allows them to be put into a green bin. But if it is going to cause the issues identified, then yeah, they should be part of the ban.

You would have to think that the people who run composting facilities for a living are pretty sure of what their job entails. That's where the data is found, and has apparently been sent to the federal level, but was rejected for another set of data that hasn't been released? It would probably be easier on everyone if the government just showed their work as opposed to releasing conclusions, only.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

You would have to think that the people who run composting facilities for a living are pretty sure of what their job entails. That's where the data is found, and has apparently been sent to the federal level, but was rejected for another set of data that hasn't been released? It would probably be easier on everyone if the government just showed their work as opposed to releasing conclusions, only.

I think its hilarious that everyone seems to understand their jobs except public servants. What makes you think they just rejected the data for a different set instead of evaluating all of the data and coming to this conclusion?

Sure I would like them to show their work.. but I haven't seen the company that makes them show their work either. Or the data from the composting facilities showing that they decompose in a short amount of time.

Could they make an exception? Maybe, if the case warrants it. But the assumption is to jump on the federal agency as if they have no idea what they are doing, instead of actually thinking these people know their jobs and have found that the bags are not that much of an improvement when looking at all factors.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by belsarius

I think its hilarious that everyone seems to understand their jobs except public servants. What makes you think they just rejected the data for a different set instead of evaluating all of the data and coming to this conclusion?

Sure I would like them to show their work.. but I haven't seen the company that makes them show their work either. Or the data from the composting facilities showing that they decompose in a short amount of time.

Could they make an exception? Maybe, if the case warrants it. But the assumption is to jump on the federal agency as if they have no idea what they are doing, instead of actually thinking these people know their jobs and have found that the bags are not that much of an improvement when looking at all factors.

I bet the city employees running the composting program know at least as much about composting as the federal employees writing the regulations.

The City website says this:

NOTE: Calgary Co-op checkout till bags are ok to use in the green cart.

https://www.calgary.ca/waste/residen...gs-liners.html

I'd say if the people running the composting program think they compost I'd be inclined to assume they know what they're doing over the Feds, but that's just me.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, but I'm sure they could have exceptions that make sense. I've just used my last plastic shopping bag as a garbage bag, as I've been doing for years. So now I need to go buy some, plastic or compostable. But having them be dual use, as a shopping bag first just makes sense. And if our city program can handle it, why shouldn't they? No logical reason. And perhaps other cities, seeing the success of Calgary's methods, might copy it.

I suspect the amount of grocery bags that get re-used as garbage bags is pretty minimal unless you just churning through an unbelievable amount of garbage.

No clue on these Co-op bags, or Calgary's green bin program - but at least around here we haven't had a green box program because they cost a bunch of money to implement/maintain. So these bags here in Ontario where I am would just get thrown out. Its difficult to implement a national program when what gets collected is different everywhere.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Its difficult to implement a national program when what gets collected is different everywhere.

As long as we stoop to the lowest common denominator I think it'll be OK.

They could always just not have a national bag policy, that's a choice. Or allow compostable bags only in municipalities with green cart collection.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I suspect the amount of grocery bags that get re-used as garbage bags is pretty minimal unless you just churning through an unbelievable amount of garbage.

No clue on these Co-op bags, or Calgary's green bin program - but at least around here we haven't had a green box program because they cost a bunch of money to implement/maintain. So these bags here in Ontario where I am would just get thrown out. Its difficult to implement a national program when what gets collected is different everywhere.

Sure, which is why a nationwide plan should have room for local variations. Almost all waste collection is fairly localized and managed by non-national entities, so cities and regions can have their own policies for dealing with specific items.

[PeteMoss]

These compostable bags do sound like a good alternative and I agree they should be excluded if they work as is said here - but they should cost you $$ to buy. We shouldn't have to produce 5 bags every time someone goes to the grocery store. Its great these things compost in a year - but would be better if we just used the same 5 bags for 3 years.

Its not difficult to learn to bring your own bags with you for us rich folk. You'll adapt in months and be fine. Just store the bags in your car. Can be more difficult for non-car owners or people who rely on delivery, etc but for the vast majority of people - its a small inconvenience.

[Fuzz]

Oh, I've been using cloth bags for years. That's not so much my issue as government policy banning things that make no sense. Like this guy was ahead of the curve, and started a business, it make sense, it works, and now is business is at threat too. I don't really like policies that aren't made on science or fact that cause worse outcomes for the sake of a common pan-Canadian strategy when all municipalities are different. Just, like, put a little more thought and consideration into it, is all. I am in no way a plastic fiend.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I bet the city employees running the composting program know at least as much about composting as the federal employees writing the regulations.

The City website says this:

NOTE: Calgary Co-op checkout till bags are ok to use in the green cart.

https://www.calgary.ca/waste/residen...gs-liners.html

I'd say if the people running the composting program think they compost I'd be inclined to assume they know what they're doing over the Feds, but that's just me.

And they are focused on their part of the equation. What I am saying is that there is more to the regulation than just being compostable. Are all bags going into green bins? What about ones that are just discarded. It was very clear that the difference in environmental effect on discarded bags, "they have not proven to perform better than conventional plastics when littered on land or in water".

What % will actually make the green bin, vs how many will just be discarded in the trash bound for a landfill or littered? I don't know that number, and the compost experts don't care about that number, but the people making the regulation are taking that into account.

The argument is that they are "biodegradable" so that should be the end of it. But the ban isn't based solely on one part of the equation. It also has to include the options such as litter waste. They also have to design a program for nation-wide. And it sounds like they have looked specifically at these bags, and while I am 100% sure they are better than plastic, that doesn't automatically mean they are good enough to overcome all of the criteria the legislation looks at.

So yes, the composting experts are the best at evaluating the compostablitly of the bags. But they are not the experts on understanding the full system effect of the bags. That's why we have systems experts, which are employed by government agencies.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by belsarius

And they are focused on their part of the equation. What I am saying is that there is more to the regulation than just being compostable. Are all bags going into green bins? What about ones that are just discarded. It was very clear that the difference in environmental effect on discarded bags, "they have not proven to perform better than conventional plastics when littered on land or in water".

What % will actually make the green bin, vs how many will just be discarded in the trash bound for a landfill or littered? I don't know that number, and the compost experts don't care about that number, but the people making the regulation are taking that into account.

The argument is that they are "biodegradable" so that should be the end of it. But the ban isn't based solely on one part of the equation. It also has to include the options such as litter waste. They also have to design a program for nation-wide. And it sounds like they have looked specifically at these bags, and while I am 100% sure they are better than plastic, that doesn't automatically mean they are good enough to overcome all of the criteria the legislation looks at.

So yes, the composting experts are the best at evaluating the compostablitly of the bags. But they are not the experts on understanding the full system effect of the bags. That's why we have systems experts, which are employed by government agencies.

I'd love to hear more about that because it doesn't really make any sense to me. Sure, plastic bags may go away, but that's only because the fracture into microplastics. Leave one of these bags out for awhile and see what happens to it. They disintegrate, presumably into not microplastics.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd love to hear more about that because it doesn't really make any sense to me. Sure, plastic bags may go away, but that's only because the fracture into microplastics. Leave one of these bags out for awhile and see what happens to it. They disintegrate, presumably into not microplastics.

From my (limited) understanding, a few of the downsides to PLA-based bags are:

-because of their long polymer chains, they don't biodegrade very easily except under ideal conditions (hot compost facility with the right microbes). So while they will break down in nature faster than plastics, we're still talking decades to centuries if they're not subjected to the correct conditions.

-if they're inadvertently included in with recyclables, they can contaminate everything.

-when they do biodegrade, the can release methane.

-composting facilities have no real way of knowing the makeup of plastic bags in the material they receive, so they'll often filter out anything that looks like plastic and it ends up in a landfill anyway.


So in terms of single-use plastic, yeah they're better than the alternatives. But compared to other options (reusable, paper, etc.) maybe not so much.