[GT] Alberta Votes 2023.

[calumniate]

Frigging sad man.. Calgary = florida now.. and it's not good

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

And this isn't bluster...some of them have been planning for a while in case this came to pass.

Where are they going?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Frigging sad man.. Calgary = florida now.. and it's not good

Wait, does this mean the Flames are in the SCF?!

[V]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I've never understood why people get worked up about equalization. The only reason why Albertans pay more and receive less is because Alberta is (unfairly) blessed with far more natural resources than any other province. That's the whole point of the program: to remedy the unfair distribution of natural resources in Canada.

That's pretty simplistic and incorrect.

The only reason? You would have been more correct to state that Albertans pay more not because they have more resources, but because they exploit those resources and sell them. Quebec has plenty of untapped natural resources simply because equalization incentivizes them to not exploit their natural resources.

Additionally, not all natural resources are treated equally in the equalization formula, and some have-not provinces sell hydro power at artificially low prices to maintain higher equalization payments.

Taxes also play into the equalization formula. Increasing corporate tax rates to minimize development of resources artificially moves a province further into have-not status.

I know I'm far from an expert in this field, but I do know that equalization payments are not decided on one simple variable of how many resources a province has available to exploit. I also know you know that as well, so I'm not sure if you were just aiming for brevity.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by you&me

I think it's time to accept that, regardless of policy and opposition, the NDP brand is simply too toxic to voters in Alberta. It's time that a new party be formed that better aligns with the views of the electorate, without the NDP-branded baggage.

Something that captures the changing views and demographics of the province, while simultaneously acknowledging the broader feelings of the voter base.

Something progressive, yet conservative.

If there's anyone here that can think of a suitable name that's both on-brand and available, I'd love to hear it.

You mean move the NDP platform more to the right on the political spectrum?

I’m curious what you think the changing views of the demographics are and what the broader feeling of the voter base is.

You want the NDP to adopt conservative values?

No offence but we need to be distancing from bigotry, not moving closer.

There is no negotiating with the other side. We are the good people, they are not. End of. There is no good face of fascism and bigotry.

[GirlySports]

So is the solution to become a have-not province? Or just not complain about it.
I know a lot of conservatives complain about equalization and it's stupid. It's like complaining about paying more taxes. I wish I paid a million dollars in taxes.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by you&me

I think it's time to accept that, regardless of policy and opposition, the NDP brand is simply too toxic to voters in Alberta. It's time that a new party be formed that better aligns with the views of the electorate, without the NDP-branded baggage.

Something that captures the changing views and demographics of the province, while simultaneously acknowledging the broader feelings of the voter base.

Something progressive, yet conservative.

If there's anyone here that can think of a suitable name that's both on-brand and available, I'd love to hear it.

Sounds like you’re describing the Progressive Conservatives under Lougheed.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Considering the softball of an opportunity they were lobbed, I thought the NDP did a pretty crappy job marketing themselves in this election.

They basically spent their entire time obsessed with Smith, and spent almost nothing on promoting their own platform or vision for the future. Attacking Smith was a legitimate tactic, but the myopic focus on it came across as kinda obsessive and insecure (the complete saturation of airwaves and cheeseball scary 90s video-effects didn't help). Danielle Smith is a known entity. How many minds are you actually going to sway at this stage? You either care or you don't. Was it really worth throwing 99% of your budget at it?

If you're a party looking to present yourself as the professional/sane choice to the moderates of our province...well, then consider demonstrating those qualities. Or at the very least tell them your vision for the future. Or clear up misunderstandings/myths about your party. They NDP did almost none of that in their advertising...they just focused on Smith. In the end they seemed to do a decent job of converting people in the cities, so perhaps their strategy worked just fine, but I think considering the context, they could've done better.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise that the NDP was overly negative or attacked Smith too much. Fact is, unless the leader of the UCP is considered a non-starter or severely unpalatable, or there are two competing right-wing parties, there just aren't enough centrist voters in Alberta to win an election.

If conservatives find the leader of the conservative party even the smallest amount acceptable, they won't consider swapping their vote. Or at least, not enough to sway a province that has voted for whichever party has conservative in their name since 1972, aside from that one time where there were two conservative parties.

The path to victory for the NDP was to convince enough right-wing voters that the conservative party was simply a non-starter with Smith at the helm. If you don't get past that first hurdle, you have lost the election without any doubt. These aren't mild conservatives or lean-right centrists. This is a population who has voted for a right-wing majority without fail for over fifty years.

[CliffFletcher]

If you're a party looking to present yourself as the professional/sane choice to the moderates of our province...well, then consider demonstrating those qualities.

Exactly. As I posted earlier, the relentless barrage of attacks ads nudged my wife from firmly in the NDP camp to considering not voting.

For the voters who don’t follow politics closely (which is most of them), what they learned during the election campaign is that the NDP really, really, REALLY hate Danielle Smith. As for what positive policy proposals they were offering that appealed to moderates…. I’m sure you could find them if you poked around the NDP website for a while.

Analysts and pollsters feel the same - the negativity hurt the NDP campaign.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Sounds like you’re describing the Progressive Conservatives under Lougheed.

That would be a great name!









To be honest, I was chuckling to myself reading some of the comments and thought how funny would it be for the NDP to re-brand as the Progressive Conservatives... They already have the platform that fits and now, after the election, truly believe a major (if not the) issue is branding and the toxicity of the NDP name in Alberta, whether fair or not.

Rewind the clock and if it's the newly formed "Progressive Conservative" party running on essentially the same platform as the NDP vs. Danielle Smith's UCPs yesterday, I honestly think the results are different... Though, maybe I'm just naive.

[Tacopuck]

Please dont lock this thread, it has been very entertaining today

[GirlySports]

Alternatives For Alberta (AFA)

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Exactly. As I posted earlier, the relentless barrage of attacks ads nudged my wife from firmly in the NDP camp to considering not voting.

For the voters who don’t follow politics closely (which is most of them), what they learned during the election campaign is that the NDP really, really, REALLY hate Danielle Smith. As for what positive policy proposals they were offering that appealed to moderates…. I’m sure you could find them if you poked around the NDP website for a while.

Analysts and pollsters feel the same - the negativity hurt the NDP campaign.

Except this is such a cop out. One side gets held to a higher standard of decorum, and it is apparently their own fault.

Every UCP ad was an attack ad on the NDP as well. The NDP didn't have any monopoly on attacking. And as for policy, major UCP points like the pension and provincial police force were ignored by the Premier, yet she will stand there and say she now has a mandate for those policies.

Its like saying that its ok for the UCP to play in the dirt, but if the NDP do it then I won't support them.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by V

That's pretty simplistic and incorrect.

The only reason? You would have been more correct to state that Albertans pay more not because they have more resources, but because they exploit those resources and sell them. Quebec has plenty of untapped natural resources simply because equalization incentivizes them to not exploit their natural resources.

Additionally, not all natural resources are treated equally in the equalization formula, and some have-not provinces sell hydro power at artificially low prices to maintain higher equalization payments.

Taxes also play into the equalization formula. Increasing corporate tax rates to minimize development of resources artificially moves a province further into have-not status.

I know I'm far from an expert in this field, but I do know that equalization payments are not decided on one simple variable of how many resources a province has available to exploit. I also know you know that as well, so I'm not sure if you were just aiming for brevity.

What you have also highlighted is that Alberta's (UCP) own strategy of lowering the corporate tax rate is in fact contributing to larger equalization payments.

Not only did Kenney write the current equalization formula, but when he was in power he took steps that materially increase the amount of equalization payments we ultimately owe to Canada as a province.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by you&me

That would be a great name!









To be honest, I was chuckling to myself reading some of the comments and thought how funny would it be for the NDP to re-brand as the Progressive Conservatives... They already have the platform that fits and now, after the election, truly believe a major (if not the) issue is branding and the toxicity of the NDP name in Alberta, whether fair or not.

Rewind the clock and if it's the newly formed "Progressive Conservative" party running on essentially the same platform as the NDP vs. Danielle Smith's UCPs yesterday, I honestly think the results are different... Though, maybe I'm just naive.

Look no further for evidence then the fact that the third highest grossing party in the election was.... the GREEN PARTY.
The NDP moved so far to centre that they abandoned one of their key vote bases to do it, environmentalists. It wouldn't have made a difference in the election, but it goes to show you that there are unhappy left leaning voters out there too.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

The path to victory for the NDP was to convince enough right-wing voters that the conservative party was simply a non-starter with Smith at the helm. If you don't get past that first hurdle, you have lost the election without any doubt. These aren't mild conservatives or lean-right centrists. This is a population who has voted for a right-wing majority without fail for over fifty years.

I'm just not sure you're going to ever really get to the established right wing voters, without demonstrating to them they have a viable alternative at the same time. If you don't, all you get is people circling the wagons.

Like I said, it's not like I think hammering on Smith was a bad strategy...but it seemed to be their ONLY strategy. Instead of throwing out the same attack ad 100 times a day, maybe mix a few positive/platform messages in there too, so people know what you actually stand for.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Frigging sad man.. Calgary = florida now.. and it's not good

More like Alberta = Florida (minus everything nice about Florida)

Calgary went 50%+ NDP

Originally Posted by belsarius

Except this is such a cop out. One side gets held to a higher standard of decorum, and it is apparently their own fault.

Every UCP ad was an attack ad on the NDP as well. The NDP didn't have any monopoly on attacking. And as for policy, major UCP points like the pension and provincial police force were ignored by the Premier, yet she will stand there and say she now has a mandate for those policies.

Its like saying that its ok for the UCP to play in the dirt, but if the NDP do it then I won't support them.

UCP candidates said some terrible things about people and lied constantly

NDP candidates pointed out that UCP candidates said some terrible things about people and lied constantly

Conclusion?

NDP mean

[btimbit]

If we're going to be Florida can we at least have Florida liquor prices?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by zamler

Where are they going?

Who knows? They need to start acting on the plans, applying for jobs, looking for somewhere to live, etc. I've heard BC, Manitoba, and the Maritimes specifically thrown around as areas more extensively researched. Ultimately they're looking for somewhere that won't be actively hostile to them while meeting their personal needs, and I doubt there's a perfect solution. They've certainly given Alberta a good honest try to this point and had little support.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by btimbit

If we're going to be Florida can we at least have Florida liquor prices?

MINUS EVERYTHING NICE about Florida