[News] Flames and Treliving agree to part ways. Maloney promoted to PoHO and interim GM

[Toonage]

At this point you'd have to ask if the benefits of keeping Sutter outweigh the potential negatives and I'm not sure they come close.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

It truly is amazing that he hasn't been removed. What good has come of this organization since Sutter returned?

We had two elite level talents up and leave despite just winning the division
We had our longest tenured and most loyal player in Backlund request a trade
We had our gm of nine years outright walk away from the organization despite receiving multiple contract offers from ownership to stay
We had Rasmus Andersson state that this was the most frustrating year of his career (with the exception of the covid year)
We had our new offseason acquisitions and big dollar investments visually dissatisfied with their treatment and usage
We had an agent publicly ridicule and mock the coach.
We now have this report that multiple players have no interest in returning at all if Sutter is behind the bench to begin next season.

There is far, far to much smoke here. You can say that there is no direct link to Sutter being the main cause for these developments, but I don't think it takes a genius to connect the dots.. Sutter has created a work environment that nobody wants to be apart of. The solution to me seems quite apparent, but a ton of damage has already been done.

Devils advocate so don't read anything into this on my position on him staying or going but for your question:

a. They had their best regular season since 1989 (2nd best in their history) under Sutter in 21-22.

b. Best PO performance in 7 years.

c. Lindholm, Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Zadorov, Toffoli, Andersson, Hanifin, Coleman, Backlund, Dube, Kylington, Gudbranson, Markstrom, Vladar, and even Tanev had career years under Sutter since he came back.

[cheevers]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I cannot believe Sutter is still employed by this team.

I may get roasted for saying this, but Bill Peters got fired for less. It's so obvious that Sutter has made a completely toxic workplace and anyone responsible for letting it continue into next season is going to be just as culpable.

Do the right thing Flames (Edwards/Maloney).

Sounds pretty white.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Devils advocate so don't read anything into this on my position on him staying or going but for your question:

a. They had their best regular season since 1989 (2nd best in their history) under Sutter in 21-22.

b. Best PO performance in 7 years.

c. Lindholm, Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Zadorov, Toffoli, Andersson, Hanifin, Coleman, Backlund, Dube, Kylington, Gudbranson, Markstrom, Vladar, and even Tanev had career years under Sutter since he came back.

But the goalie went from .920 save percentage last season to .890 save percentage this season.

Clearly Sutter is to blame.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Devils advocate so don't read anything into this on my position on him staying or going but for your question:

a. They had their best regular season since 1989 (2nd best in their history) under Sutter in 21-22.

b. Best PO performance in 7 years.

c. Lindholm, Tkachuk, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, Zadorov, Toffoli, Andersson, Hanifin, Coleman, Backlund, Dube, Kylington, Gudbranson, Markstrom, Vladar, and even Tanev had career years under Sutter since he came back.

Fair enough.

I just don't see any meaningful improvements listed - certainly nowhere close to offsetting the losses we have incurred as a result of him being here.

A. The same core managed to win the west in 2018-19.

B. One more playoff win than 2019-20 and an embarrassing loss to our biggest rivals.

C. When the core group is in the 23-28 range - progression should be expected. Vets like Backlund, Coleman, Toffoli, Zadorov and Gudbranson have all produced at those rates previously.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Fair enough.

I just don't see any meaningful improvements listed - certainly nowhere close to offsetting the losses we have incurred as a result of him being here.

A. The same core managed to win the west in 2018-19.

B. One more playoff win than 2019-20 and an embarrassing loss to our biggest rivals.

C. When the core group is in the 23-28 range - progression should be expected. Vets like Backlund, Coleman, Toffoli, Zadorov and Gudbranson have all produced at those rates previously.

With absolutely no adjustments. None.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

I thought he walked away essentially because he lost out to Dubas for the GM job. I might remember wrong though.

I think you're right. I believe the Leafs were prepared to keep him as an AGM, but walked away and left money on table out of principle.

I don't really know how much Mark Hunter impacted the current Leafs roster so I don't really have an opinion. Dubas is hilarious though, watching his reactions when watching the game. Such a weirdly intense dude. If he were GM of the Flames, his head would probably explode.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Toronto never did a big rebuild though, as in committing to being bad via the tank. They just were bad naturally, outside maybe the Matthews draft. Hell, the Nylander draft they picked after Calgary. They never loaded up on picks, and they retained their "stars" like Kessell, Phanuef, Kadri and Gardiner all the way through.

Nobody starts a rebuild intentionally. It always starts organically, and then it depends if you lean into it or try to resist it.

The Leafs fully leaned into a rebuild by firing Nonis, brought in Shanahan, who then brought in Lou, Traded Kessel, Traded Dion, and they drafted Nylander at 8, Marner at 4, and Matthews at 1.

Should they have leaned harder and traded JVR, Bozak, and Kadri too...Sure. But they did go for a bottom out rebuild.

Once they got Marner and Matthews though they made the playoffs in 16-17 without actually adding a whole lot to the roster.

Honestly it's not easy to keep sucking like Edmonton and Colorado did to accumulate lots of top 5 picks. If you draft well you will get at least to playoff bubble within 3-4 years. Oilers should have been nowhere near drafting McDavid after having 3 1st overalls already, and really were on rebuild part 3. Colorado should have been nowhere near the position to draft Makar after having Duchene, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen already.

It was absolute failure of team building that was rewarded, not some type of strong plan to tank for 10 years to build a good roster. And to me those aren't really examples of "Successful Planned Re-builds" they were actually failed rebuilds that got rewarded over time due to continued ineptitude.

[Moneyhands23]

Not much in the way of news on this front. Hopefully they have the management and coach solidified by the draft.

[Ashasx]

I would like to believe that Conroy would have the leg up on Hunter but then again this is the Flames

[Toonage]

If Conroy had the leg up, he'd be GM by now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Nobody starts a rebuild intentionally. It always starts organically, and then it depends if you lean into it or try to resist it.

The Leafs fully leaned into a rebuild by firing Nonis, brought in Shanahan, who then brought in Lou, Traded Kessel, Traded Dion, and they drafted Nylander at 8, Marner at 4, and Matthews at 1.

Should they have leaned harder and traded JVR, Bozak, and Kadri too...Sure. But they did go for a bottom out rebuild.

Once they got Marner and Matthews though they made the playoffs in 16-17 without actually adding a whole lot to the roster.

Honestly it's not easy to keep sucking like Edmonton and Colorado did to accumulate lots of top 5 picks. If you draft well you will get at least to playoff bubble within 3-4 years. Oilers should have been nowhere near drafting McDavid after having 3 1st overalls already. Colorado should have been nowhere near the position to draft Makar after having Duchene, Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen already.

It was absolute failure of team building that was rewarded, not some type of strong plan to tank for 10 years to build a good roster. And to me those aren't really examples of "Successful Planned Re-builds" they were actually failed rebuilds that got rewarded over time due to continued ineptitude.

They didn't trade Kessel and Dion until after they got Nylander and Marner, for the record. In fact, I can't think of anyone they got rid of in that timeframe. They did indeed lean into the Matthews year, and I suppose watching Edmonton scoop McDavid the year before may have had an impact.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They didn't trade Kessel and Dion until after they got Nylander and Marner, for the record. In fact, I can't think of anyone they got rid of in that timeframe. They did indeed lean into the Matthews year, and I suppose watching Edmonton scoop McDavid the year before may have had an impact.

Because Nonis was still GM.

[mile]

Iginla said in his interview that Conroy is at the U-18s in Switzerland right now



We'll see what happens after he gets back

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They didn't trade Kessel and Dion until after they got Nylander and Marner, for the record. In fact, I can't think of anyone they got rid of in that timeframe. They did indeed lean into the Matthews year, and I suppose watching Edmonton scoop McDavid the year before may have had an impact.

They still traded them in the end.

And that's my point - it's rare for a team that was in a playoff spot like the Flames have been at times each of these last 4-5 years to go "We need to blow it up and re-build" - honestly I can't really think of an example of a team in a playoff position/bubble position committing to a rebuild before they land a top 5 pick.

You build a team, and if they start to suck and land you a top 8 pick like Nylander, and a top 4 pick like Marner, then you go "We should probably sell this off and lean into it"

Even Tampa Bay - they didn't trade St.Louis, Richards, Lecavalier, etc until after they already drafted Hedman and Stamkos.
Colorado had added lots of pieces after drafting Duchene and Landeskog and were trying to compete, they just failed and then lucked into Mackinnon too.
Edmonton everyone knows the complete failure that organization was, and yet they somehow got rewarded with a generational talent.

Nobody plans to go into a rebuild - you just need to be smart enough to lean into organically when it is happening and then hopefull

[Spurs]

It is crazy how much blame people put on Sutter for things that are not his fault and how much hope people put into a mediocre roster coming good just by firing a great coach. Sutter is so far from the main problem with this team and firing him does so little to fix any problems we have. In fact keeping him sounds like it might help us get rid of many of the players we need gone.

[Toonage]

Its a speed and skill league. Removing Sutter could pay immediate dividends if getting younger/faster players onto the roster and removing slower older veterans is of importance.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Its a speed and skill league. Removing Sutter could pay immediate dividends if getting younger/faster players onto the roster and removing slower older veterans is of importance.

Where are we getting these younger/faster players? We don't have them in the system unless we don't care about talent and just want young players that suck.

The myth that Sutter held back young players is such crap. We don't have quality young players that should have been players. The players lack of talent is what held them back.

[FunkMasterFlame]

Originally Posted by cheevers

Sounds pretty white.

Huh?

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Its a speed and skill league. Removing Sutter could pay immediate dividends if getting younger/faster players onto the roster and removing slower older veterans is of importance.

The veterans what carried this team. Had Marky played better hubby scores a few more goals and we hit a few less post few more overtime wins we wouldn't be complaining.
Rough year I'm sure the staff will adjust use it as something learn from