[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Try opening night in a new arena.

Nobody will be complaining then. We all like having nice things, and we quickly forget what we paid for those things once we are able to enjoy them.

Right now it's like getting a bill for something you haven't been able to enjoy yet. Nobody likes that, so lots of griping.

Think big picture, folks.

Yeah I don't think opening night in a new arena is the big picture here. No matter what side of the argument you are on.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Present a clear argument please. This is just ad hominem attacks.

When pushed on your initial post in the thread you fell back on good old feelings of opening night. Nothing you've said has had merit to it. You started off by claiming since the tax dollars have already been collected people shouldn't care where it goes. It's been kinda impossible to take you seriously since.

[Jbo]

Honestly I was typing something out but just not worth it. I’ve read 40 pages of this and neither side is going to convince the other side.

I believe the timing is right for this project and believe it will very much be a net positive for the city.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

When pushed on your initial post in the thread you fell back on good old feelings of opening night. Nothing you've said has had merit to it. You started off by claiming since the tax dollars have already been collected people shouldn't care where it goes. It's been kinda impossible to take you seriously since.

Honestly one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a while haha.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Firstly, I don't think you and I disagree all that much. However, to the bolded? I don't think you'll ever get a definitive and proper answer.

It is what it is. You either are in favor of this because you want the Flames in town, or you don't. I don't really see a middle ground.

You are making some rather simplistic arguments here. There is a whole lot more to it than that and I think Pepsifree's post did a pretty nice job of explaining that to you.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

When pushed on your initial post in the thread you fell back on good old feelings of opening night. Nothing you've said has had merit to it. You started off by claiming since the tax dollars have already been collected people shouldn't care where it goes. It's been kinda impossible to take you seriously since.

The comment about opening night followed several posts about the intricacies of the economics, so no, you're not correct.

The tax dollars have already been collected. Listening to councilperson Sharp, she detailed that this is already paid for in cash by the city. The money is already there, they are just deciding how to use it and it was voted for unanimously. Take it up with your city council if you don't like it.

I'm a serious person, and I'm happy to engage in a serious discussion if you're game. Let me know when you're ready.

[Reggie Dunlop]

The main contention for many is the public/private funding formula, not a new arena per se.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Firstly, I don't think you and I disagree all that much. However, to the bolded? I don't think you'll ever get a definitive and proper answer.

It is what it is. You either are in favor of this because you want the Flames in town, or you don't. I don't really see a middle ground.

I hope we would at least agree that, at price tags above 1 billion dollars, somebody could try to offer up a proper answer, no?

And it's not about whether you want the Flames around or you don't, it's whether you think it's worth it. I love the Flames. I want the Flames around. But I also want a better sell for them being around than getting to say I live in the city the Flames play in. Because whether we want to admit it or not, this money is buying the Flames presence here, but it's also giving up other things. So it has to justify itself beyond "Flames here. That nice." Right? Please? It's not that I don't think it's worth it, it's that I don't know, and everyone telling me it is are basically saying "just trust me, it feels good." Cool.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I hope we would at least agree that, at price tags above 1 billion dollars, somebody could try to offer up a proper answer, no?

And it's not about whether you want the Flames around or you don't, it's whether you think it's worth it. I love the Flames. I want the Flames around. But I also want a better sell for them being around than getting to say I live in the city the Flames play in. Because whether we want to admit it or not, this money is buying the Flames presence here, but it's also giving up other things. So it has to justify itself beyond "Flames here. That nice." Right? Please? It's not that I don't think it's worth it, it's that I don't know, and everyone telling me it is are basically saying "just trust me, it feels good." Cool.

What are we giving up in exchange? What projects have been shelved or are in danger if they proceed with this?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I hope we would at least agree that, at price tags above 1 billion dollars, somebody could try to offer up a proper answer, no?

And it's not about whether you want the Flames around or you don't, it's whether you think it's worth it. I love the Flames. I want the Flames around. But I also want a better sell for them being around than getting to say I live in the city the Flames play in. Because whether we want to admit it or not, this money is buying the Flames presence here, but it's also giving up other things. So it has to justify itself beyond "Flames here. That nice." Right? Please? It's not that I don't think it's worth it, it's that I don't know, and everyone telling me it is are basically saying "just trust me, it feels good." Cool.

Again, I don't disagree with you here, but there is a net benefit to doing this type of investment. I see the plan, it makes sense to me, but to others it doesn't and it seems like a major risk.

Ok, I get that.

I guess all I can say now is that I hope it all works out. I suspect it will, but I may end up being wrong. Unfortunately, I cannot predict the future.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Again, I don't disagree with you here, but there is a net benefit to doing this type of investment. I see the plan, it makes sense to me, but to others it doesn't and it seems like a major risk.

Ok, I get that.

I guess all I can say now is that I hope it all works out. I suspect it will, but I may end up being wrong. Unfortunately, I cannot predict the future.

Emotional? Maybe. Financial? It's never been able to be shown. In report after report, study after study. You'd think after how many municipalities have gone through this same thing, someone would have found it by now.

Having a new arena doesn't generate disposable income, it just moves it. This is a taxpayer funded asset value increase for billionaires. The cool factor of having a new arena will be gone in a year. The money will be gone forever.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

Fiscal conservatism is a total lie, and fiscal conservatives like to spend public money as much or more than the rest of the population.

My take is that when somebody starts preaching fiscal conservatism it's just a convenient excuse because they don't have a rational argument to oppose things that are good society.

Many conversations go:
Me "Why are you against this project that will to help the poorest or disadvantaged members of society?"

Fiscal Conservative: "Well, I'm a fiscal conservative...."

Good thing you didn’t use any generalizations.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jbo

What are we giving up in exchange? What projects have been shelved or are in danger if they proceed with this?

I don't know, and neither do you. But unless money is suddenly infinite, we both know it's not nothing.

It's hundreds of millions of dollars from the city and the province. There is any number of similar-type projects that could have been completed with that money (again: stadium, concert hall, theatre, etc). They could've poured the whole pot into revitalizing that district without the arena. It could also have a down-the-line impact on our ability to fund things like healthcare, safety, transit, etc. without increasing taxes on individuals or businesses. Hell, they could've taken that money and used it on any of those things right now.

You like it. That's cool. But is it not fair to ask that it be justified in "the bigger picture" with actual facts instead of vague "good deal, just the reality of things, world's not fair, better this than blue rings, oh well!"?

Like, you have to understand that if the city has $500m to spend on this they could spend $500m on anything and they chose this, right? So there should be some sort of strong justification for why this and why not anything else they could have done, right?

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

She scored??? on Markstrom!

Was she in cosplay as the white rabbit? She is the parade marshall for the Calgary Expo this year I think.

Everyone scored on Markstrom this year.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

The comment about opening night followed several posts about the intricacies of the economics, so no, you're not correct.

The tax dollars have already been collected. Listening to councilperson Sharp, she detailed that this is already paid for in cash by the city. The money is already there, they are just deciding how to use it and it was voted for unanimously. Take it up with your city council if you don't like it.

I'm a serious person, and I'm happy to engage in a serious discussion if you're game. Let me know when you're ready.

This is absurd.

My paycheque has already been deposited. I see it right there in my bank account. I can clearly afford a new 80" TV. In fact, I think I'll buy two, as I have enough money in my bank account. There will be absolutely no opportunity cost from me spending 98% of my paycheque on those TVs, since I already have the money, like I said, right there, in my bank account. The money is there. If I don't spend it now, I'll probably just have to spend it later on groceries or Turkish baby tylenol or something. But since I have access to the money, right there in my bank account, already deposited, I will proceed with the TVs with no further consideration.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

This is how you waste money, don’t waste it on piddly small projects, burn it in a massive bonfire of waste.

You’re probably right. Governments never waste money.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This is absurd.

My paycheque has already been deposited. I see it right there in my bank account. I can clearly afford a new 80" TV. In fact, I think I'll buy two, as I have enough money in my bank account. There will be absolutely no opportunity cost from me spending 98% of my paycheque on those TVs, since I already have the money, like I said, right there, in my bank account. The money is there. If I don't spend it now, I'll probably just have to spend it later on groceries or Turkish baby tylenol or something. But since I have access to the money, right there in my bank account, already deposited, I will proceed with the TVs with no further consideration.

It's not the same thing because city budgets don't operate with a savings plan. They spend what they take in because that is the mandate. Taxpayer money should fund public projects. This isn't some sort of university endowment. They are obligated to spend the money taken in from taxes, otherwise they could not justify having the tax rate that exists.

[btimbit]

I'm not even as mad as I should be, I like big projects and will be happy when it's completed.

Just a shame people will applaud this level of corporate welfare from the UCP and then claim that the NDP is the party that wastes money

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Jbo

What are we giving up in exchange? What projects have been shelved or are in danger if they proceed with this?

No skin in the game but everything has an opportunity cost. The real cost is not that project A costs x amount of resources (money, labor, materials...) but what would've been gotten if those resources had been spent on project B. That's the real cost of any project, not the resources themselves.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I'm not even as mad as I should be, I like big projects and will be happy when it's completed.

Just a shame people will applaud this level of corporate welfare from the UCP and then claim that the NDP is the party that wastes money

"I'm a socialist! Spend money to improve my city!"

River district and arena project is announced...

"Not like that!"