Are flames fans concerned about the team leaving if the arena situation falls through

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

Happy to see this franchise leave, honestly.
Hundreds of millions of tax dollars should be spent on upgrading our aging sports and recreation infrastructure, some of which were built in the 60's.

Then why are you here? If you would be happy to see them leave why bother?

[powderjunkie]

It's crazy how much misinformation is out there on the arena deal, but sadly that seems to be CSEC's gameplan.

Originally Posted by wired

I am expecting the team to be sold and moved before an agreement for a new arena is set in stone. Nothing to do with the fans, and everything to do with the city.
Owners should foot the bill for an arena outside the city limits. that way they have 100% ownership and no interference from the city.

Owning the building is not a good thing.

Originally Posted by GullFoss

The CSEC and City of Calgary had a deal pre-covid in which the flames were responsible for 100% of cost overruns. Before construction started, covid hit. And then cost overruns we're going to be 20%-40%. Which is valued at close to $100m-$200m of additional costs for the flames.

People who think the deal died over some solar panels are missing the obvious.

The new deal is going to be split exactly like the old deal, but will reflect the new higher, post-covid cost. And the flames will accept some $10m-$20m in clown climate items to make the deal more palatable from a political perspective.

Solar panels are a nothing burger. They pay for themselves over the lifespan of the building. It's a totally reasonable requirement for the city to have. It's just a bad faith attempt at a wedge issue.

Your other timeline is not quite right - the original deal had 50/50 cost overruns up to $25M total. Beyond that was ambiguous.

Through COVID costs obviously blew through that provision. July 2021 is when the Flames agreed to take on the cost overruns, in exchange for removing CMLC (ie. the public interest advocate) and IIRC value engineering away things like the community rink.

Municipal election was October 2021. It's interesting to speculate what lead to the July 2021 change; one would think there wasn't a lot of appetite from city councillors to announce further corporate subsidization so close to the election, so it was probably CSEC's only option at the time aside from hitting pause/cancel.

And then the election would inform their next moves. I haven't done a deep dive into voting records and how the new council compared to the previous, but there were definitely some new councillors tripping over themselves to help drive CSEC's narrative and get the ball rolling to 'save' the deal. I would guess that CSEC would have tried to collaborate more or gone with a mutual pause-button message if Jeff Davison won instead of the Gondek = evil strategy. Hard to say what they would have done with a Mayor Farkas.

I also wonder if CSEC miscalculated their longterm leverage by hitting the nuclear option while the team was playing well. Public appetite would look a lot different if they managed a better playoff run last year or continued the trajectory into this season.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Then why are you here? If you would be happy to see them leave why bother?

Oh I'm happy to watch them on TV. I don't need my tax dollars paying for the team to be based in Calgary. They can be anywhere for all I care. Let some other gullible tax base get fooled into paying for a billionaires playhouse.

[MegaErtz]

I couldn't agree more. People struggle enough with rent and property taxes. Why should we be on the hook in any way for a new arena for the Flames? The vast majority of people in Calgary can't afford to go to the games. If the Flames want a new arena, they should pay for it. If they want to leave, go ahead and leave.

[Loyal and True]

I could see the Flames moved/sold.

Then city builds a new event centre at their own massive expense, because the city needs one anyway.

Then, another team relocates or NHL expands to Calgary a few years later, with the city offering big incentives to use their new, expensive building.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Murray isn’t moving the team, he would just sell. And it would be to the highest bidder. Not “to a buyer who would keep the team in Calgary” especially without a new arena.

Much ado about nothing because he won’t sell and the new arena will get built.

The case study of a small market Canadian team being sold in a city willing to make an arena deal is literally playing out in front of our eyes now. Spoiler alert, it will be sold for nearly a billion and stay in that market. The possibility of the senators being moved is so far off the radar, I haven't even heard mention of it.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by kevman

Calgary's population has grown from ~600,000 when the Flames moved here, to ~850,000 in the mid 90's when the threat to leave was real, and now to ~1.35 million. This isn't the same small market team it used to be. Add in hockey being "Canada's sport" factor and this is a profitable location for an NHL team.

Not worried, and if they do leave, good riddance.

If Calgary were such a great market the building would be sold out every night.

It isn’t.

Yes Calgary has grown. The building has stayed the same size. So, maybe Calgary isn’t as good a hockey market as people think it is. Based on the energy level of the crowds (they suck) and happiness generally of the fan base, personally I think Flames fans are amongst the lowest 1/3 of the NHL. This team gets not a ton of volume support and part of the teams home ice problem is the awkward tension of having an extremely judgmental and quiet fan base sit on their hands.

I just don’t think Flames fans or Calgarians should be patting themselves on the back so much. Like, honestly? Calgarians and Flames fans need to be better.

[soulchoice]

I’ll always cheer for the Flames no matter what city they are in, even if they moved. Truth is, a new arena has to be built, or it’s likely they will be gone at some point. I’m currently not living in Calgary now, but may move back. If I was living in Calgary and they left, that will be a sad day, even if the city was to get a new franchise, eventually.

To have a city that is over a million people with no major professional sports team is not somewhere I’d want to be long term, as I like attending sporting events. Especially since I do not care about second or third tier leagues, hence, I don’t watch or follow any other local clubs. (Exception, Wranglers due to the Flames affiliation).

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The Flames are not going anywhere. If the Flames ownership can't get an arena deal done they will be forced to sell to another group that will. That is the way the NHL works under Bettman, there are plenty of suitors willing to buy the team and keep them in Calgary. Edwards can't just take his ball and go elsewhere, it doesn't work that way.

Sorry but, why? Are you sure about this? How do you know?

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

I could see the Flames moved/sold.

Then city builds a new event centre at their own massive expense, because the city needs one anyway.

Then, another team relocates or NHL expands to Calgary a few years later, with the city offering big incentives to use their new, expensive building.

Just grant us an expansion team!

The way it works nowadays, it's really the best way to go. We can wipe the slate clean and build this thing right.

Even Seattle, who arguably did far worst with their draft, have managed to round into pretty competitive form.

Honestly I'd prefer it to retaining the Flames in its current state of disarray.

[Mr.Coffee]

City of Calgary should offer to buy the Flames and build the arena, Green Bay style.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Sorry but, why? Are you sure about this? How do you know?

Here is an article that was from the Edmonton Journal on the hoops one has to jump through to move a team including the voting process and the rules on exhausting all options in a local buyer before considering relocating.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-nhl-franchise

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

If Calgary were such a great market the building would be sold out every night.

It isn’t.

Yes Calgary has grown. The building has stayed the same size. So, maybe Calgary isn’t as good a hockey market as people think it is. Based on the energy level of the crowds (they suck) and happiness generally of the fan base, personally I think Flames fans are amongst the lowest 1/3 of the NHL. This team gets not a ton of volume support and part of the teams home ice problem is the awkward tension of having an extremely judgmental and quiet fan base sit on their hands.

I just don’t think Flames fans or Calgarians should be patting themselves on the back so much. Like, honestly? Calgarians and Flames fans need to be better.

Calgary is a great market we just have a boring product because of a boring coach's system, Sutter is stuck on winning and once again has sucked in ownership to buy into is BS that's it the only way to the cup. even they forget that pro hockey is about 41 games of entertainment for the ticket holders.

Make no mistake, Calgary has great fans that don't sit on their hands when there's something to cheer about.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Calgary is a great market we just have a boring product because of a boring coach's system, Sutter is stuck on winning and once again has sucked in ownership to buy into is BS that's it the only way to the cup. even they forget that pro hockey is about 41 games of entertainment for the ticket holders.

Make no mistake, Calgary has great fans that don't sit on their hands when there's something to cheer about.

Calgary's fans are no better than average at the best of times.

Even last year in the playoffs, tickets were not sought after commodities, even at face value.

This year, as Calgary was battling for a playoff spots, tickets on CP were going for well below face value.

[mac_82]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

It's crazy how much misinformation is out there on the arena deal, but sadly that seems to be CSEC's gameplan.

Owning the building is not a good thing.

Solar panels are a nothing burger. They pay for themselves over the lifespan of the building. It's a totally reasonable requirement for the city to have. It's just a bad faith attempt at a wedge issue.

Your other timeline is not quite right - the original deal had 50/50 cost overruns up to $25M total. Beyond that was ambiguous.

Through COVID costs obviously blew through that provision. July 2021 is when the Flames agreed to take on the cost overruns, in exchange for removing CMLC (ie. the public interest advocate) and IIRC value engineering away things like the community rink.

Municipal election was October 2021. It's interesting to speculate what lead to the July 2021 change; one would think there wasn't a lot of appetite from city councillors to announce further corporate subsidization so close to the election, so it was probably CSEC's only option at the time aside from hitting pause/cancel.

And then the election would inform their next moves. I haven't done a deep dive into voting records and how the new council compared to the previous, but there were definitely some new councillors tripping over themselves to help drive CSEC's narrative and get the ball rolling to 'save' the deal. I would guess that CSEC would have tried to collaborate more or gone with a mutual pause-button message if Jeff Davison won instead of the Gondek = evil strategy. Hard to say what they would have done with a Mayor Farkas.

I also wonder if CSEC miscalculated their longterm leverage by hitting the nuclear option while the team was playing well. Public appetite would look a lot different if they managed a better playoff run last year or continued the trajectory into this season.

Great rundown.

Just wanted to add that the province then got involved with a seat at the table for Ric McIver with the new event centre committee.

This week, Danielle Smith was at the Calgary Economic Development's annual Report to the Community. When asked about how the UCP will help revitalize Calgary's downtown, Smith mentioned the new arena.

I'm willing to bet money we hear something about the new area after the writ drops on May 1 and the UCP use it as a campaign selling point - even if Smith and McIver did little or nothing to make a new deal happen.

[Bleeding Red]

Is anyone even watching the OTT sale?!?

Notice how no one is saying that a group from Houston, Atlanta, Kansas City, or Quebec City is looking to buy that franchise and move it. (Why isn't QC in on that? it would be easy to make that shift - same division and all)

Would Bettman & the BoG allow a move?

I think that franchise could be seen on par with CGY - a few playoff appearances, 1 SC run in the last 20 years, small population, etc...

Again - if you think the scenario of sell the team - get an expansion team is in any way realistic you are high. No one seems to want to pay $600m CND for a new arena, who is going to pay $650m USD for an expansion team on the hope they can duplicate LV & SEA (and not OTT & SJ)? And CGY goes to the bottom of the list - after Portland, Cincinnati, and Cleveland.

(if the Flames move, it won't be long until the Wranglers go with them. I think that would make CGY the largest Junior Hockey (CHL) only city.) Suddenly the only thing making CGY better than Moncton is the CFL!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Here is an article that was from the Edmonton Journal on the hoops one has to jump through to move a team including the voting process and the rules on exhausting all options in a local buyer before considering relocating.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-nhl-franchise

Someone just posted a David Staples article as support for an argument?

All it takes to move a team is approval from the board of governors, process be damned. If someone is influential enough to the board they can make the vote go their way. If they can convince the board the current location of the franchise is no longer viable to support the initiatives of the league then it is done. It is how Minnesota was able to relocate from the hockey state to Dallas. Logic and process be damned, you only have to convince the other voting members that it is in their best interests to allow the relocation of the franchise. Murray Edwards is a very influential member on the board so don't discount his ability to sway the vote in his favor. Moving teams is more political than it is anything. If Edwards wants it to happen, it will happen.

[Cowboy89]

I actually welcome it.

Moving the Flames out of town might actually be the quickest way to get a high-end competitive NHL team that competes for the Stanley Cup in Calgary. Las Vegas and Seattle have demonstrated that in the cap era the biggest competitive advantage is a clean slate.

Let the Flames move to Atlanta or Houston. In the ashes of the team moving have the province / city figure out how to build a new arena. Get an expansion team and then watch them make the playoffs more reliably than the Flames. Process should take 5-10 years, which is probably the current ETA for a competitive team if we went full rebuild anyway!

[marsplasticeraser]

Flames games aren’t sold out because the team is mismanaged. It’s why people don’t fill a theatre to watch a stinker of a movie.

It’s actually remarkable how many fans they get for such a terrible fan experience, and there are few other cities that would get the turnout Calgary does.

We have a terrible fan experience unless you like trucks on the concourse.

We have an on ice product that historically is amongst the worst in our league over the last 39 years.

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

If Calgary were such a great market the building would be sold out every night.

It isn’t.

Yes Calgary has grown. The building has stayed the same size. So, maybe Calgary isn’t as good a hockey market as people think it is. Based on the energy level of the crowds (they suck) and happiness generally of the fan base, personally I think Flames fans are amongst the lowest 1/3 of the NHL. This team gets not a ton of volume support and part of the teams home ice problem is the awkward tension of having an extremely judgmental and quiet fan base sit on their hands.

I just don’t think Flames fans or Calgarians should be patting themselves on the back so much. Like, honestly? Calgarians and Flames fans need to be better.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

Flames games aren’t sold out because the team is mismanaged. It’s why people don’t fill a theatre to watch a stinker of a movie.

It’s actually remarkable how many fans they get for such a terrible fan experience, and there are few other cities that would get the turnout Calgary does.

We have a terrible fan experience unless you like trucks on the concourse.

We have an on ice product that historically is amongst the worst in our league over the last 39 years.

If the product were “that terrible” we wouldn’t sit on a website and talk or think about it. I have my well documented gripes about the NHL but in full honesty I’m not going to go away next year or the year after that. The NHL has consistently done things I hate and I’m still following hockey because I love hockey.

But I don’t know if Calgarians love hockey that much. I don’t really see the proof. The entertainment value isn’t really that bad and they aren’t selling out. The prices are competitive and the after market for tickets is struggling. This isn’t what it was in 2005 / 2006 and it’s not like Calgary is some special market more than any other. The truth is that winning is what matters to keep tickets sold and that’s true even for places like Calgary. So it’s not like Calgary is some unicorn light on the top of the hill. Calgarians don’t sell out the building, not even in a playoff run which was actually decently interesting/ exciting this year. Continuing declining attendance when the issue is not prices (or shouldn’t be, in observance for the average of pricing of the NHL product) is not a good look. Fans sitting around bitching about the Flames 24/7 (myself included haha) is not a good look. Outright refusing to support to build the arena is not a good look to an owner. And with all of these things, everyone has extremely valid and good viewpoints, many that I agree with- with regard to entertainment value or the arena. But do those things matter if it comes to keeping the Flames in Calgary? Would Calgarians look back and regret their previous position if it meant the Flames moved? I think so.