[News] Flames and Treliving agree to part ways. Maloney promoted to PoHO and interim GM

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Forbes does a lot of guesswork for private companies, though NHL teams have to open the books somewhat under the CBA.

But moreover, revenue is only half the equation. What are the expenses?

What even is "operating revenue" in this context? I mean, $41M can't be all there is because that doesn't even cover 50% of their player salary expenditure.

According to Forbes, Operating Revenue is net earnings before taxes, interest, depreciation and amortization. It is a fairly accurate depiction of what their net profit is.

NHL had revenues of about 5.2 billion last year. 2.6 billion of that on a normal year would go to the players (I will just skip the increased escrow for simplicity). That would leave 2.6 billion divided by 32 for the individual teams (on average). Flames would be in all likelihood around the middle for revenue, so the average is probably accurate (Forbes had 17 teams with more operating revenue than the Flames and 14 teams with less).

That would leave the Flames with about 81.25 million out of that 2.6 billion. Even if you shave it down to 70 milion, there is no way that the Flames operating expenses outside of players salaries are anywhere near 70 million. I doubt they top 30 million, especially considering that any individual's salary whose duties contribute to revenue activities can have that portion of their salaries deducted from the total Hockey Related Revenue pie . So anyone who sells tickets would have their entire salary deducted (thus already paid before the 2.6 billion is handed out), if they work on getting TV contracts, radio contracts, social media the portion of their salary that is for the work they do to generate revenue is deducted, if they work in the merchandise store their entire salary is deducted, if they work in concessions their entire salary is deducted, if they sell sponsorship deducted, parking attendants deducted. It would be a small number of salaries that even have to be paid out of the 2.6 billion the owners collectively got last year after players salaries.

Flames fans can rest easy, the Owners are making a lot of money each and every year.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

Owning a professional sports team is not a luxury hobby. The value of these teams continues to grow at over 10% annually on average. We are now at a point among professional sports teams in North America that we have pretty much reached max team saturation, and these franchises are harder and harder to come by.

For somebody like Murray Edwards, even if he is not selling the team, his ownership of an appreciating asset like an NHL team allows him to collateralize with banks and access that money regardless, allowing him to continue to increase his wealth. Owning a professional sports team is a goldmine, which is why it is so hard to get one.

I agree, but several things can be true at the same time. The fact that the team may profit/lose a few million each year is akin to us regular joe's spending money on fantasy pools/sports betting/buying tickets (I did the math on this a while back and IIRC the owner's box is easily worth $1M per year)

There are other beneficial business reasons to own a team, like reciprocal advertising with your other businesses (RCR/etc), networking with other owners/league partners, etc.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is the site that provides the number. It differentiates between revenue ($148M) and operating income ($48M). But it's a pretty sketchy article since it lists player expenditures at $81M which doesn't match CF at all. They also don't seem to know there is more than one owner.

https://www.forbes.com/teams/calgary...h=1a4b64f19050

I'm sure these numbers are all barely educated guesses, but the player salary thing could be as simple as escrow.

[Hockey_Ninja]

The owners are gonna have to accept a rebuild is inevitable with every NHL franchise and that there’s gonna be financial hardships that come with it. You’re already at a tough crossroads with 6 of your key players set to become UFA’s next summer. It could be thrusted upon them sooner rather than later

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I don't want to go too off topic but there is a weird way that the Flames organization markets the team that is rubbing me the wrong way and has for a while. Some directly and some indirectly.

It's always "Tre is always on the phone, in on all the deals" "We are skinning everybody at the draft day table" "Top UFA's signed here" "We spend to the cap to consistently make playoffs even though we don't do crap over the last 20 years"


Bottom line is that this franchise from a reputational perspective , business and fanbase perspective can survive and even thrive. Get the PROPER messaging out. Tell the fanbase and the clients what your doing. Get innovative on marketing, fan support, season ticket holder events etc. Discount some tickets, get young players into the line up. Will the Dome sell out? Doubtful but you can count on some excitement and some hope for the future. This team has absolutely ZERO excitement attached to it and it shows. You can't give the clients and the fans a hardsell BS about how we are some superior managed and elite hockey club and constantly be dog ****

Have a plan and present it! Look at Chicago now, after a decade + of dominance and high performance, they tried a quick re-tool and now are full on about getting a mountain of draft picks and rebuilding quickly through the draft. If they land Bedard or another elite top 3 pick, how long till they fill in the key pieces from their farm club and some solid UFA that they will contend? Very soon.

The sad and scary part is Calgary hasn't even gone through the tough times as a team post 04 lockout. The team and the fan's haven't really paid the price. We traded away our franchise players or lose them to expansion clubs or UFA and never really had a chance to rebuild. No pain and no gain. It's comical if it wasn't so sad.

LOL, pretty funny to land on Chicago as your example for having a plan and getting better messaging out. Did you miss that Rocky Wirtz press conference?

[SuperMatt18]

Also Chicago was forced into this rebuild really.

But not even 24 months ago they traded:

Blue Jackets received:
Adam Boqvist (2018 8th overall pick)
2021 first-round pick (12th overall),
2021 second-round pick (44th overall),
2022 first round pick (6th overall)

For:

Seth Jones
2021 first-round pick (32nd overall)
2022 sixth-round pick (173rd overall).

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by NilssonistheReal14

I can assure you there was nothing mutual about this decision. And, this is also not the Flames choosing the coach over the GM. Right now, everything being spun by the Flames is saving face from the fact that a GM no longer wanted to be here even though he was offered a lucrative extension and the authority to fire Sutter.

Brad chose to leave. This team is a dumpster fire and he is getting out when he can. Its an impossible team to recruit players to, and combine that with the meddling owners?

They will probably keep Sutter to make it look like this was their choice. But, its not.

Thanks for the post. Keep em coming.

And for those wondering if this is legit, i went back and found NR14 posts from before (pretty juicy stuff!), and back in 2012 Textcritic stated "Without going into great detail, NTR14's sources appear to be credible."

I don't live in Calgary, but it has to be getting tough to justify renewing season tickets at this point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I don't want to go too off topic but there is a weird way that the Flames organization markets the team that is rubbing me the wrong way and has for a while. Some directly and some indirectly.

It's always "Tre is always on the phone, in on all the deals" "We are skinning everybody at the draft day table" "Top UFA's signed here" "We spend to the cap to consistently make playoffs even though we don't do crap over the last 20 years"


Bottom line is that this franchise from a reputational perspective , business and fanbase perspective can survive and even thrive. Get the PROPER messaging out. Tell the fanbase and the clients what your doing. Get innovative on marketing, fan support, season ticket holder events etc. Discount some tickets, get young players into the line up. Will the Dome sell out? Doubtful but you can count on some excitement and some hope for the future. This team has absolutely ZERO excitement attached to it and it shows. You can't give the clients and the fans a hardsell BS about how we are some superior managed and elite hockey club and constantly be dog ****

Have a plan and present it! Look at Chicago now, after a decade + of dominance and high performance, they tried a quick re-tool and now are full on about getting a mountain of draft picks and rebuilding quickly through the draft. If they land Bedard or another elite top 3 pick, how long till they fill in the key pieces from their farm club and some solid UFA that they will contend? Very soon.

The sad and scary part is Calgary hasn't even gone through the tough times as a team post 04 lockout. The team and the fan's haven't really paid the price. We traded away our franchise players or lose them to expansion clubs or UFA and never really had a chance to rebuild. No pain and no gain. It's comical if it wasn't so sad.

Blackhawks have missed the POs for 5 of 6 years (and were bounced in round one in the other). They also lost in round one the previous two years before that run though their regular seasons were good. That doesn't seem like that quick of a turnaround. And they didn't really tank those years anyway. One high pick (and they went with Dach). They traded away a first in 2021 and in 2022 for Seth Jones.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Also Chicago was forced into this rebuild really.

But not even 24 months ago they traded:

Blue Jackets received:
Adam Boqvist (2018 8th overall pick)
2021 first-round pick (12th overall),
2021 second-round pick (44th overall),
2022 first round pick (6th overall)

For:

Seth Jones
2021 first-round pick (32nd overall)
2022 sixth-round pick (173rd overall).

Man, the Jackets mopped up with that. My goodness.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Man, the Jackets mopped up with that. My goodness.

Jackets didn't even trade their own pick, just a 32nd that they'd gotten from TB. Which they'd gotten for doing a three way deal on David Savard to retain 50% of his salary.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Man you guys are nuts if you think you are the norm and most people would pay to see a team actively tanking. You and I might but normal Joe Calgarian would not. Watch any Ducks game this year and tell me average, non die-hard people would want to shell out money for that.

Yup, most people have too much #### going on to pay a lot of money to watch a team suck. Fan interest is waning this year and they have a shot at the playoffs. Three years of true rebuilding and the Dome will be half empty until they hit on some prospects

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Yup, most people have too much #### going on to pay a lot of money to watch a team suck. Fan interest is waning this year and they have a shot at the playoffs. Three years of true rebuilding and the Dome will be half empty until they hit on some prospects

Gate receipts are 33% of total league revenues so it is not nothing, definitely something to think about. If you had a corresponding reduction in your salaries, which would naturally follow during a rebuild it may be a wash.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by NilssonistheReal14

I can assure you there was nothing mutual about this decision. And, this is also not the Flames choosing the coach over the GM. Right now, everything being spun by the Flames is saving face from the fact that a GM no longer wanted to be here even though he was offered a lucrative extension and the authority to fire Sutter.

Brad chose to leave. This team is a dumpster fire and he is getting out when he can. Its an impossible team to recruit players to, and combine that with the meddling owners?

They will probably keep Sutter to make it look like this was their choice. But, its not.

If Treliving was offered all of this autonomy he would be insane to turn the job down. With the exception of a few big market teams, attracting and retaining talent is tough. PERIOD. Suggesting this is the reason Treliving pulled the plug doesn’t make sense as 2/3rds of the teams in the league will face the same challenge. When you add in Treliving’s budgetary skills, any market advantage disappears. Treliving is leaving because he reads his own hand writing on the wall. The future is bleak because of Treliving and his moves.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

If Treliving was offered all of this autonomy he would be insane to turn the job down. With the exception of a few big market teams, attracting and retaining talent is tough. PERIOD. Suggesting this is the reason Treliving pulled the plug doesn’t make sense as 2/3rds of the teams in the league will face the same challenge. When you add in Treliving’s budgetary skills, any market advantage disappears. Treliving is leaving because he reads his own hand writing on the wall. The future is bleak because of Treliving and his moves.

No he would be insane to keep doing a job that he doesn't enjoy. He has no need to be an NHL GM, he has plenty of career options and huge family business. He's probably also not made this decision in isolation as he's probably had some feelers from other teams if he decides to stay in the NHL. He sees the future as being bleak because ownership is not going to change their ways.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Gate receipts are 33% of total league revenues so it is not nothing, definitely something to think about. If you had a corresponding reduction in your salaries, which would naturally follow during a rebuild it may be a wash.

It depends on what the corporate side does. If they bail as well then the math gets even worse.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

If Treliving was offered all of this autonomy he would be insane to turn the job down. With the exception of a few big market teams, attracting and retaining talent is tough. PERIOD. Suggesting this is the reason Treliving pulled the plug doesn’t make sense as 2/3rds of the teams in the league will face the same challenge. When you add in Treliving’s budgetary skills, any market advantage disappears. Treliving is leaving because he reads his own hand writing on the wall. The future is bleak because of Treliving and his moves.

Seems likeNR14 is speculating on Tre's reasons; his intel can still be true in terms of 'what' happened even if he doesn't actually know why (and the what may not be the fullest/truest picture).

It seems likely to me that autonomy was a contentious issue in Tre's previous extension, and he may not feel like the agreement was sufficiently respected to trust a similar promise again. I think it sucks, but Edwards can meddle if he wants to, just like Tre can leave if he wants to.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Yup, I think Calgary is generally a bandwagon hockey city outside of the hardcore fans. If you have had a share of season tickets it was hard to sell most games at breakeven last season and then this season you could barely give tickets away.

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I believe Calgary is one of the worst (smallest) hockey markets in the NHL.

We do have a collection of some hardcore fans, but:

A) largely a transient population with people from all across Canada having moved here from other cities for work, so there’s large part of the population that aren’t Flames fans but rather fans of the Leafs, Canadians, etc.

B) small population, and population in surrounding areas are largely Oilers-leaning (legacy of championships, best player of all time in Gretzky, best current player in McDavid)

C) dwindling corporate support

Mix A and B together and our fanbase is just small. Add in C and I think this team has a real problem.

You can see it in how the games get covered as well. Companies like CBC/Rogers/Bell etc. have the viewership numbers, it’s why the Flames get so openly neglected.

I agree with both those post whole heartedly.
Hell, I've been this person for a large part of the last decade.

And think because of the climate that's probably why Edwards et al are so scared of an actual rebuild. The hardcore fans would get it. But generally speaking revenue would continue to dip, and suddenly it's 1998 again.

[taxbuster]

I suspect that Tre had two conditions:
- Darryl removed as coach
- actual autonomy (not theoretical...as in Murray lets him do his thing)

Edwards wouldn't do the first (he hired and extended DS over Tre's head?) and they're (allegedly) pals. And he certainly wouldn't do the second.

So...Tre walked. I would too.

[SuperMatt18]

If payroll goes from $82M to $62M if you commit to a true rebuild I think you can mitigate some of the financial risk.

If anything the real financial risk is spending to the cap, missing the playoffs, and attendance dropping anyways.

Which is more of a real risk for this org right now IMO

TBH I'm a bit surprised Edwards didn't use Tkachuk and Gaudreau leaving last season as a flash point. I thought for sure he might use it as a way to try to gain support for the arena. "We can't keep our top talent because of our arena", "We can't spend to the cap anymore because the arena doesn't provide the same type of revenue streams that the Oilers have access too".

Then use that as an excuse to re-build and cut our spending as you try to time your contention window with the opening of a new arena.

Really it would have made a lot of sense for this org to try to do it that way - but as others seem to say the only long term plan Edwards has is "Make the playoffs"

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I have from a good source that Gaudreau told the Flames he would have re-signed in the summer of 2021 if the Flames matched his request for $8.5MM for 8 years. The Flames tried to get that down over the summer, and talks ended at training camp.

Where there's smoke there's fire I guess, I heard that from 2 sources but also that the flames wanted $7.5m x 8 or something around $8m x 6

[Vinny01]

I think Edwards is a fine owner in the sense he gives the team resources and funds to spend as much as any team out there. The team won’t pay for a coach or retain salary in trades proved to be false. People who think GM’s should be able to do what they want without answering to anyone is delusional.

My beef with Edwards is his disdain for the concept of rebuilding. Feaster wasn’t calling it a rebuild. He said the plan was to make the playoffs the season after they moved Iggy and Bouw but ultimately their actions did not show that. The John Bean comment about not being able to say the word rebuild was a facepalm moment for me.

Listening to Frank on Barnburner today sure paints a horrible picture of the organization