[News] Flames and Treliving agree to part ways. Maloney promoted to PoHO and interim GM

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by NilssonistheReal14

Lots of criticism of Brad here, without really knowing or looking at facts. So, lets put ourselves in his shoes knowing the facts?

Lets say you are evaluating trades for Tkachuk. Your very clear directive from your boss is we ARE NOT rebuilding. Which offer do you accept? the rebuild one? or, the keep the trying to win course?

Lets say, Gaudreau is coming off consecutive seasons where he had 49 pts in 58 games and 59 pts in 70 games. He is asking for $8.5m x 8 extension. Do you sign that? Hindsight is awesome isnt it.

Lets say, your other star player, Tkachuk handcuffs you by telling you I will only sign a contract that takes him to free agency. You are kinda stuck, arent you? he actually did Treliving a solid by telling him he won't resign a year in advance. And, yea, his reason for not resigning was "whats the plan with Darryl?" oh, ok, I am not resigning.

Lets say, after one year of Ward, your boss goes out, calls up his old buddy and says, hey you want to come take this job? And, then calls you up and tells you "hey, we are hiring this old friend of mine. can you get rid of your guy please".

Ya, granted, his previous coach hires were not awesome. Some unfortunate circumstances in Peters. But, maybe he was given a budget and those were the best he could get?

I would say, given a mandate from ownership that we will not rebuild, having star players who dont want to play for a coach given to you by the owners, being told by the coach that these are the kind of guys I want, go get them, oh and these older guys? these are who I am going to play, so resign them. Well, I think we have to look at all that. And, ask yourself, would you have done any better? Not likely.

And, then, after nine years of having to sell players on coming to a country with a higher tax rate, a city with an old crappy arena, where you still have to park outside, and by the way, we have a coach who our star players didnt want to play for, and, really, it is getting harder and harder for me to try to sell you on coming here? Why would you want to? Well, the only thing I can really say is, we are close to the mountains, which, by the way, our standard player contract states you can not ski or snowboard in season, so... ya, well at least its a nice view. Wouldnt you kind of get tired of it to? And, you know you have built up a good reputation in the industry? And, there are all these other teams who may want to hire you? And, ones where selling players on coming to play with your team is so much easier, and the owner will give me some leeway. and, at least I have now earned that right to have the leeway. Wouldnt you want out too?

I really dislike Murray Edwards.

Edit: The one thing I would say is while $8.5M seems like a lot for Gaudreau if you looked at a three season view then Gaudreau was still worth $8.5M. He had 206 points in the previous 208 games and he was clearly the offensive driver for this team. If Gaudreau's ask was $8.5M then you have to think a deal could have come in between $8.0M and $8.5M and that would have been fair even without the hindsight of the next season. Anything above $9M and I would have hesitated - but I think $8-$8.5 would have been completely fair.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I don't think any UFA gets a pick the 10-15 range outright. It have to be a team that that trades a 24 1st for them and then they have a worse than expected season.

Maybe but there could be a lot of picks in play to make teams better now. There are ways to work around the extension period and Lindholm and Hanifin are exactly the type of assets teams are looking for. I think they return massive hauls if they are made available.

[Royle9]

The problem with keeping Toffoli, Backlund, Hanifin, Lindholm.. or any guy past this draft and into next season is really simple.

If the Flames run it back with these guys and are in playoff posistion at the deadline, they'll essentially lose them for nothing because you cant trade them to contenders when you're contending. This has been a glaring issue with the Calgary Franchise for decades. We hold onto players too long, run into seasons where we're going to likely make the playoffs, hang on to said players then bow out in the first round and lose them for nothing.

Simply cannot afford to do this again... so I fully expect it to happen.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by NilssonistheReal14

Lots of criticism of Brad here, without really knowing or looking at facts. So, lets put ourselves in his shoes knowing the facts?

Lets say you are evaluating trades for Tkachuk. Your very clear directive from your boss is we ARE NOT rebuilding. Which offer do you accept? the rebuild one? or, the keep the trying to win course?

Lets say, Gaudreau is coming off consecutive seasons where he had 49 pts in 58 games and 59 pts in 70 games. He is asking for $8.5m x 8 extension. Do you sign that? Hindsight is awesome isnt it.

Lets say, your other star player, Tkachuk handcuffs you by telling you I will only sign a contract that takes him to free agency. You are kinda stuck, arent you? he actually did Treliving a solid by telling him he won't resign a year in advance. And, yea, his reason for not resigning was "whats the plan with Darryl?" oh, ok, I am not resigning.

Lets say, after one year of Ward, your boss goes out, calls up his old buddy and says, hey you want to come take this job? And, then calls you up and tells you "hey, we are hiring this old friend of mine. can you get rid of your guy please".

Ya, granted, his previous coach hires were not awesome. Some unfortunate circumstances in Peters. But, maybe he was given a budget and those were the best he could get?

I would say, given a mandate from ownership that we will not rebuild, having star players who dont want to play for a coach given to you by the owners, being told by the coach that these are the kind of guys I want, go get them, oh and these older guys? these are who I am going to play, so resign them. Well, I think we have to look at all that. And, ask yourself, would you have done any better? Not likely.

And, then, after nine years of having to sell players on coming to a country with a higher tax rate, a city with an old crappy arena, where you still have to park outside, and by the way, we have a coach who our star players didnt want to play for, and, really, it is getting harder and harder for me to try to sell you on coming here? Why would you want to? Well, the only thing I can really say is, we are close to the mountains, which, by the way, our standard player contract states you can not ski or snowboard in season, so... ya, well at least its a nice view. Wouldnt you kind of get tired of it to? And, you know you have built up a good reputation in the industry? And, there are all these other teams who may want to hire you? And, ones where selling players on coming to play with your team is so much easier, and the owner will give me some leeway. and, at least I have now earned that right to have the leeway. Wouldnt you want out too?

pain

[NilssonistheReal14]

The thing that stings the absolute most about your owner not having any foresight, and just always being in win now mode and not looking big picture is, if ever there was a season to take the rebuild route.... there seems to be this player in this years draft, who may have been worth not making the playoffs and having a few lottery balls of a chance at...

[SuperMatt18]

It is kind of interesting to look at this organizations "luck" when it comes to the last 3-4 generational players.

03-04: Probably looking at a top 5 pick, then they trade for Kipper and go on a crazy run. Not only does that push them out of the Ovechkin/Malkin sweepstakes, but due to the lockout and the way the draft lottery rules work it costs them a chance at Crosby in 2005 when they would have had great odds otherwise.

14-15: Comfortably entering a re-build...but sike they go on a PDO bender and have an amazing season that not only costs them a shot at McDavid / Eichel (where they were one of 3-5 favourites to land him coming into the season) but also pushes ownership off the idea of a re-build altogether. Of course the dirty Oil get their 4th 1st overall pick in 6 years and get bailed out from their own ineptitude.

22-23: Potentially forced into an opportunity to rebuild and tank to get a shot at Bedard coming into the season with Gaudreau and Tkachuk wanting out...but ownership decides to double down and go for it instead.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I really dislike Murray Edwards.

Edit: The one thing I would say is while $8.5M seems like a lot for Gaudreau if you looked at a three season view then Gaudreau was still worth $8.5M. He had 206 points in the previous 208 games and he was clearly the offensive driver for this team. If Gaudreau's ask was $8.5M then you have to think a deal could have come in between $8.0M and $8.5M and that would have been fair even without the hindsight of the next season. Anything above $9M and I would have hesitated - but I think $8-$8.5 would have been completely fair.

If that was the ask. I suspect that Johnny had no desire to negotiate after his two crappy seasons and simply told Treliving they'd get into it later. Which probably was not even a lie at that point - it seems like he wasn't adverse to staying at that time, just later. The issue was the kick in of his LNTC when that season started, as well as the success of the team making any trade impossible.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If that was the ask. I suspect that Johnny had no desire to negotiate after his two crappy seasons and simply told Treliving they'd get into it later. Which probably was not even a lie at that point - it seems like he wasn't adverse to staying at that time, just later. The issue was the kick in of his LNTC when that season started, as well as the success of the team making any trade impossible.

Well a rumor I had heard was that the Flames really didn't want to go above $7-7.5M at the time (whether this was ownership or Treliving who knows).

I feel like if Gaudreau was at $8.5M for example and the Flames offered $8.25M that a deal probably gets done.

I can see both sides of that one - there were a lot of questions around Gaudreau at the time but even without hindsight $8.0 to $8.5M would have been fair for Gaudreau.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Well a rumor I had heard was that the Flames really didn't want to go above $7-7.5M at the time (whether this was ownership or Treliving who knows).

I feel like if Gaudreau was at $8.5M for example and the Flames offered $8.25M that a deal probably gets done.

I can see both sides of that one - there were a lot of questions around Gaudreau at the time but even without hindsight $8.0 to $8.5M would have been fair for Gaudreau.

I bet his agent, who was not an easy negotiator, would have put that offer in his pocket and counseled waiting for a while.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I bet his agent, who was not an easy negotiator, would have put that offer in his pocket and counseled waiting for a while.

I have from a good source that Gaudreau told the Flames he would have re-signed in the summer of 2021 if the Flames matched his request for $8.5MM for 8 years. The Flames tried to get that down over the summer, and talks ended at training camp.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It is kind of interesting to look at this organizations "luck" when it comes to the last 3-4 generational players.

22-23: Potentially forced into an opportunity to rebuild and tank to get a shot at Bedard coming into the season with Gaudreau and Tkachuk wanting out...but ownership decides to double down and go for it instead.

I still thought the Flames would still be in the mushy middle because of the defense and goaltending without Tkachuk and Gaudreau. Adding Weegar, Huberdeau, and Kadri gave me hope they could St Louis themselves to a cup. I can see why they didn't blow it up with Florida offer on the table.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I have from a good source that Gaudreau told the Flames he would have re-signed in the summer of 2021 if the Flames matched his request for $8.5MM for 8 years. The Flames tried to get that down over the summer, and talks ended at training camp.

Yeah, I heard the same, that Gaudreau was willing willing to sign a contract that was a large discount to what he was offered this past offseason in the summer of 21. Didn't know the number though.

[Erick Estrada]

Duhatschek with a rare scathing article on the Flames. He takes shots at Sutter and Edwards.

https://theathletic.com/4421547/2023...darryl-sutter/

That’s how you lose a league-high 30 one-goal games. Sutter is a crafty contrarian and has been his entire coaching life. That will never change. The Flames clearly needed a spark. Potentially, they could have gotten it from any of those young players. But Sutter’s playbook rarely varies — he prefers the safe, low-risk veteran path.

This – a year out of the playoffs, after a 111-point season the year before — was the predictable outcome. Because this is what safe gets you. Safe gets you close. But this year, it also had you always chasing. And chasing games consistently night in and night out wears on a team mentally. It isn’t a winning strategy in the long run. And so on Monday, when the dust had finally settled a little and the page turned to next year, the first casualty was general manager Brad Treliving.

Until there’s a new GM in place, it’s impossible to know if they’re going to act decisively and change personnel in a meaningful way — or if they will rely on a series of half measures, which has been the organizational way ever since Murray Edwards took control of the ownership group. Philosophically, the history of the Flames organization is the following: It’s all about patching and plugging, on the grounds that the bad years aren’t — deep down — as bad as they look. And if you can just fix the overtime record and get the goaltending back to where it was a year ago, then maybe you can get by with just a tweak.

The net result is you can have a bad season followed by a good season, and go on that way endlessly. But you never really come close, because you never get those core pieces — those Connor McDavids, those Connor Bedards — that can change the course of your franchise in a heartbeat. The Flames haven’t come close for a long time — 2004, when they lost in the Stanley Cup Final to Tampa Bay. So, they’re at a crossroads.

Flames are fortunate to be served softballs by the local media so it's refreshing to see at least someone in the media calling out Edwards for what he's created.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I have from a good source that Gaudreau told the Flames he would have re-signed in the summer of 2021 if the Flames matched his request for $8.5MM for 8 years. The Flames tried to get that down over the summer, and talks ended at training camp.

Treliving for whatever reason seemed to play hardball with extensions for his guys while having no issues overpaying in free agency. It appears he took things a little too far with Gaudreau as if he could have signed him for $8.5 million that would have been a win for the organization.

[Mr.Coffee]

at the end of the day, it's tough not to see how the blame for everything doesn't lie with Edwards. It's not a comforting thought, but it's most probably the reality.

For a smart guy, he sure has been pretty average as owner of the Flames.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

at the end of the day, it's tough not to see how the blame for everything doesn't lie with Edwards. It's not a comforting thought, but it's most probably the reality.

For a smart guy, he sure has been pretty average as owner of the Flames.

I would say below average. The only positive is that he pays the bills and has kept the team in the city. The best owners want to win a Stanley Cup and are willing to trust the people the hired to do it. Edwards just wants to make the playoffs. Always has and he's not even managed to do a good job at that.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I liked his candour too. I do wonder if he just didn’t want to be jobless but may ultimately join Treliving wherever he goes.

Having just finished the presser I think Bean really overcompensated for Maloney's early honesty [about Tre initiating the move]. It was pretty laughable near the end where Bean tried to justify himself by citing the last management book he read.

Maloney's honesty is refreshing, but that presser showed that there is nobody in the organization right now who can serve as a grandfatherly/news anchor confidence inspiring type (like Tre or John Davidson or in a different way Brian Burke). Probably an important priority to list on Bean's "brilliant" idea for a hiring matrix.

Originally Posted by Royle9

The problem with keeping Toffoli, Backlund, Hanifin, Lindholm.. or any guy past this draft and into next season is really simple.

If the Flames run it back with these guys and are in playoff posistion at the deadline, they'll essentially lose them for nothing because you cant trade them to contenders when you're contending. This has been a glaring issue with the Calgary Franchise for decades. We hold onto players too long, run into seasons where we're going to likely make the playoffs, hang on to said players then bow out in the first round and lose them for nothing.

Simply cannot afford to do this again... so I fully expect it to happen.

I think you can go into the year with maybe 1 or 2 of them not extended/traded, but hopefully neither Lindholm or Hanifin in that situation. A big risk being injury before TDL time, where I'd hope it's an ink vs. trade ultimatum regardless of standings.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by NilssonistheReal14

The thing that stings the absolute most about your owner not having any foresight, and just always being in win now mode and not looking big picture is, if ever there was a season to take the rebuild route.... there seems to be this player in this years draft, who may have been worth not making the playoffs and having a few lottery balls of a chance at...

I think people constantly make two potentially wrong leap when the start to critique the ownership groups "alleged" win now mandate, as a lack of foresight. BTW, I actually believe that the ownership group does have a win now, or no full rebuild mandate, but I don't KNOW that they do, that's why I say alleged, but I do think it's the most likely.

The wrong leap people make IMO is that they assume the owners think it's actually our best strategy to win. I think it's less to do with that, and more to do with what the owners are willing to spend, or more appropriately, what they aren't willing to LOSE financially during the rebuild. People falsely think the Flames make money for our ownership group, it doesn't, it likely loses them money. At the very least, it's a massive opportunity cost for them in that every dollar they "invest" in the Flames would generate a much much higher rate of return invested elsewhere. The Flames are not a good investment for our ownership group, they do it for other reasons.

Which leads to the second leap, which is that the owners should just throw more money at this team, even if that means more losses, because, well they are rich right? They certainly are, wealthy beyond my wildest dreams. But that doesn't actually mean they should / can afford to lose millions and millions of dollars (it would be a staggeringly high number) during a multi year rebuild.

While most of us on here, who spend time posting about the Flames, would certainly tolerate a rebuild and likely invest in the team the same amount (although certainly, even in this community much of our investment in the team doesn't actually translate to real value creation for the team), the fact in a market the size of Calgary, the fringe fans, the bandwagon fans are required to push the team financially to break even or make a little money each season. The team needs the extra playoff games, and they need the building to creep up to 95% to 100% full (at meaningful ticket prices too, not overly discounted) to do that. That doesn't happen in this city (or any small market Canadian city) when the games aren't meaningful. When the team is not playing for anything, the casual attendance wains, and so does the teams cost recovery or profits. I actually find the expectation that the ownership group should just eat that, or even that they can just eat that from many in here to be a little ridiculous / borderline entitled.

Our ownership group isn't perfect.........but I think if we were to get a new owners there is a more than likely chance we'd realize the grass if far from greener on the other side. Generally the team has been allowed to spend to the cap, we don't see them in front of the cameras all day, and seemingly we have to invent our own ownership is meddling stories. I think it could be a lot worse ownership wise, and we should be careful what we wish for. I'm happy that we have owners committed to keeping the team here, and that are willing to invest reasonably to bring players here, I don't think people should assume that would be a given.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Duhatschek with a rare scathing article on the Flames. He takes shots at Sutter and Edwards.

The second quote is amazing. Possibly the best description of the Flames franchise philosophy that I've ever read.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Treliving for whatever reason seemed to play hardball with extensions for his guys while having no issues overpaying in free agency. It appears he took things a little too far with Gaudreau as if he could have signed him for $8.5 million that would have been a win for the organization.

Let's be honest. that 8.5M only looks okay in hindsight. He was coming off a season 49 points in 56 games (prorated would be 71 points) where the Flames missed the playoffs. I think a lot of people probably would not have been happy that summer if he signed.