Sutter is the problem

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

So who are we blaming for Jonathan’s issues now? Toffoli? Because the PP runs through him when it should be Huberdeau?

Toffoli is the best one shot scorer on the team. So at the very least, he keeps the defense and goaltenders honest. If Huberdeau wants to become as big of a threat as Toffoli, than he needs develop a harder more accurate shot instead of passing it 90% of the time which falls exactly into the the opposition’s strategy. They know he’s not a threat to score from the flank, so they take away his passing lanes effectively neutralizing him.

For the record, I’m not crazy about Toffoli as the top PP option either, probably speaks more to the weaknesses of this team. But he’s easily been the most dangerous guy on the man advantage for the Flames this season and his PP numbers speak to that.

If Huberdeau wants to become as big of a threat as Toffoli? Really? Was it Toffoli who was third in the entire NHL in PP points over the previous three seasons or was it Huberdeau? Who's career high was 38, and who's was 16? One has showcased the skillset and ability to run an extremely effective PP unit while the other hasn't. Toffoli and Andersson were individually the beneficiaries of the PP running through them, but the team as a whole struggled because of it. Of course Huberdeau struggled in a scheme that had little to no movement and prioritized shots from the tops of the circles. That doesn't play to his strengths as a player whatsoever, nor is it conducive to having a quality powerplay unit overall.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree that Huberdeau had good passes into the slot that were flubbed. I wish he'd made more all the way to the other side, or to a Dman floating into the high slot (like Zadorov the other night).

They tended to use Toffoli on the left, for his RH shot, which didn't work well with Huberdeau preferring to pass from that side as well. Speaking which I'd imagine that 75-80% of Calgary's power play shots came from the left side. That's easy to defend when it's so predictable.

The team hadn't practiced quick puck movement. It was way too easy for other teams to block up the lanes, and there was no way for Huberdeau to pass through all the way to the other side. When the Flames were on the PP, it just seemed like they had no way to penetrate the defence of the other team, even when the other team they were playing against were AHL call ups. They rarely had the other team on their heals on the PP. The only time I remember seeing that was in the third period of these last few games, when the team was finally playing with total desperation.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If I was a betting man, I'd say Sutter gets at least another year as coach out of his new 2 year deal. There's no way the team fires him before his new deal even starts.

I doubt Sutter even wants GM, BTW. Too much off season work.

Unfortunately this is what I think too. He at least gets to start next season and if things go south, then maybe gets fired by December but i can't see it earlier. And he won't want GM.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

The team hadn't practiced quick puck movement. It was way too easy for other teams to block up the lanes, and there was no way for Huberdeau to pass through all the way to the other side. When the Flames were on the PP, it just seemed like they had no way to penetrate the defence of the other team, even when the other team they were playing against were AHL call ups. They rarely had the other team on their heals on the PP. The only time I remember seeing that was in the third period of these last few games, when the team was finally playing with total desperation.

Yeah, Huberdeau himself said that he too often found himself in spots where the best play was a low percentage pass. You are absolutely right about speed of puck movement. Even Toffoli when he was hot, was finding seams to shoot through, not really one timing on a quick play.

There don't seem to be a lot of quick thinkers on the power play and there doesn't seem to have been so much practice that they can make plays without thinking.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I just don't agree.

Markstrom isn't a top goalie. He may bounce back, but his three seasons for the Flames have been Average, Top of the League, Bottom of the League - he's average.

Kadri is going to 33 years old next year, and he's a career 50 point guy.

Lindholm has only been a centre for two(?) full NHL seasons at this stage. He was fantastic when playing with Gaudreau and Tkachuk (two of the top-10 wingers in the league), and this year he showed himself to be a 60 point centre. He's not a game changer - and we also don't know if he wants to be here beyond this contract that has 1 season left on it.

Andersson and Weegar are very good defencemen, but they aren't elite. They're not prime aged Doughty or Hedman or even prime aged Pietrangelo.

This team does not have the top-end talent to be a great team.

Markstrom's problems were two-fold. He had a below average season, but the team also hung him out to dry many times. You could see, later in the season, as the effort in front of him increased Markstrom started to regain his confidence.

The Flames have one of the deepest defences in the league. It goes beyond Anderssson and Weegar. The top 4 of Weegar, Andersson, Hanifin, and Tanev is solid.

As far as the forward core, it had the potential to be one of the deepest in the league. Lindohlm, Kadri, Backlund is a solid centre group. On top of that the Flames were still able to roll up 5 wingers at or very near to .5 PPG. What they were missing was the top end offensive game, which was stifled by the system.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by blankall

Markstrom's problems were two-fold. He had a below average season, but the team also hung him out to dry many times. You could see, later in the season, as the effort in front of him increased Markstrom started to regain his confidence.

The Flames have one of the deepest defences in the league. It goes beyond Anderssson and Weegar. The top 4 of Weegar, Andersson, Hanifin, and Tanev is solid.

As far as the forward core, it had the potential to be one of the deepest in the league. Lindohlm, Kadri, Backlund is a solid centre group. On top of that the Flames were still able to roll up 5 wingers at or very near to .5 PPG. What they were missing was the top end offensive game, which was stifled by the system.

I do disagree on Markstrom. He allowed a significant number of weak goals this year, which was one of his strengths while he was in Vancouver (and for us last year) - he didn't allow weak ones. He allowed a weak goal almost every night this season. He was bad, and it's beyond any perceived weaknesses on the defensive front.

Depth without the top end talent isn't good enough. You need the top end talent and then incredible depth behind them. So yeah, I agree - Hanifin, Weegar, Tanev, Andersson is solid depth but none of those guys are Doughty or Hedman. None of them can takeover a shift the way that game changing talent does. We need that.

Lindholm's inability to show that he can be an elite offensive talent without Gaudreau and Tkachuk just kind of is what it is. He's not good enough to be the #1 player on a #1 line on a top team. He doesn't have it. He's very good defensively, but he doesn't make things happen in the same way Bergeron does for example.

The "build a team by committee" approach was done quite well by the Flames, and all it did is expose that without the top-end game changing talent, that committee approach just isn't how you win in this league.

For the most part this season the Flames played an incredibly well structured, game-controlling style. The failures of this season come down to three things in my eyes:

1. Top end talent is extremely lacking. So while we controlled the play, we didn't have the skill to make use of it. Best case scenario we have Huberdeau bouncing back next season - but having one top end winger is a surefire way to be a bad team. We have good history with that.

2. Markstrom was the worst starting goalie in the league, and when you look at his three years with the Flames he is an average goalie.

3. Coaching. Specifically the player utilization/line construction, and the PowerPlay - with more emphasis on the powerplay than anything. Inexcusable incompetence in how the PP was structured and deployed. Ugly stuff.

[Ashasx]

I will say, even people who talk positively about this organization in the local media (Wills, Loubardias) haven't had much positive to say about Darryl lately. Seems kind of telling to me when not many are going to bat for him right now.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by blankall

It really depends on your definition of dump and chase. The Flames spent a lot of time carrying the puck in but then dumping it along the boards. I guess they carried the puck into the zone....then immediately dumped it.

And it's not just on zone entries - whenever they have possession in the offensive zone, if they don't have a clear and safe opportunity to pass to someone, they rim it around the boards. Every time.

Which is the more plausible scenario?: each of the 18 players individually comes to the conclusion that this is a good play (multiple times per game); or, the one coach is telling them to do it?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I will say, even people who talk positively about this organization in the local media (Wills, Loubardias) haven't had much positive to say about Darryl lately. Seems kind of telling to me when not many are going to bat for him right now.

That's what he and Brent do. They wear on everyone over time. I think they are both great men away from the game but they don't know how to mix business with anything else but cold, hard business. Darryl has been a great head coach over his career and he will always have that but he's just a little out of touch with players, fans, and media in 2023.

[Dajazz]

Sutter is one problem, I’d argue that Markstrom was a much larger one.

Kadri, pretty much as expected, 50-60p and some bone headed plays.

Huberdeau, lol. Ok, let’s see next year. A guy that good simply didn’t forget to hockey.

Team was solid defensively. Had the puck a lot. Sure Sutter wants quantity and puck possession and this team was really good at that.

It still comes down to Markstrom sucking big time and a LOT of bad luck. If Sutter is hated, fine, but he’s not the main reason.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I will say, even people who talk positively about this organization in the local media (Wills, Loubardias) haven't had much positive to say about Darryl lately. Seems kind of telling to me when not many are going to bat for him right now.

Well, for Wills at least, I think Sutter hates his questions and isn't shy about showing it.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I will say, even people who talk positively about this organization in the local media (Wills, Loubardias) haven't had much positive to say about Darryl lately. Seems kind of telling to me when not many are going to bat for him right now.

I’m not a fan of Sutter at all and hope that he is canned as soon as tomorrow but I have little positive to say about Wills or Loubardias this season. They both were way too pollyanna and refused to call out the team when they had the chance to do so. The only thing that might have been worse than watching the Flames lose was listening to Loubo and Wills repeating the same schlock over and over post game and burying their heads in the sand about the play of the team. The repetition of stuff like “this team is going to be tough to beat in the playoffs”, “one goal losses are going to build this team for big games”, and “they are better than what we saw tonight” was really annoying after the first quarter of the season.

Loubo is clearly a nice guy and I bet he is a truly quality person but he seems too emotionally connected to the players as human beings to offer valid criticism.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

I’m not a fan of Sutter at all and hope that he is canned as soon as tomorrow but I have little positive to say about Wills or Loubardias this season. They both were way too pollyanna and refused to call out the team when they had the chance to do so. The only thing that might have been worse than watching the Flames lose was listening to Loubo and Wills repeating the same schlock over and over post game and burying their heads in the sand about the play of the team. The repetition of stuff like “this team is going to be tough to beat in the playoffs”, “one goal losses are going to build this team for big games”, and “they are better than what we saw tonight” was really annoying after the first quarter of the season.

Loubo is clearly a nice guy and I bet he is a truly quality person but he seems too emotionally connected to the players as human beings to offer valid criticism.

Being a media member is a tough job because it's hard to satisfy everyone. Fans have turned on Kelly when he praises other teams because they find him anti-Flames when in reality there is nothing wrong with pointing out positive plays or players on the opposing side.

[Flamesfan05]

Basically the biggest reasons they failed to make the playoffs

1- horrible goaltending. You can’t win when your goalie is consistently the second best. You can’t win when your goalie consistently allowed untimely goals

2- The new stars didn’t step up and provided the offense they need when they need it. Huberdeau was getting better at the end of the year so there is some hope for him. Kadri quit. Combined with his skill set, we are getting the second coming of James Neal. Guarantee d.

The defense has always been leaky. That’s not new.

Sutter is a stubborn ass. He is not a fixer when things don’t go his way. Everyone knows that.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

If Huberdeau wants to become as big of a threat as Toffoli? Really? Was it Toffoli who was third in the entire NHL in PP points over the previous three seasons or was it Huberdeau? Who's career high was 38, and who's was 16? One has showcased the skillset and ability to run an extremely effective PP unit while the other hasn't. Toffoli and Andersson were individually the beneficiaries of the PP running through them, but the team as a whole struggled because of it. Of course Huberdeau struggled in a scheme that had little to no movement and prioritized shots from the tops of the circles. That doesn't play to his strengths as a player whatsoever, nor is it conducive to having a quality powerplay unit overall.

On this team specifically, Toffoli is the bigger threat between the 2 because from the flank, he actually has a shot that can beat a goaltender from distance. Huberdeau’s has to shoot from the top of the circles because that’s what the opposition defense is giving him.

His shot is as bad as Gaudreau’s was, it’s not a threat at all and that’s why teams have given him that all season long. Teams defended the Flames the exact same way last season as well. You don’t think they know what Huberdeau’s strengths are? Of course they know what to give and what to prevent.

Just look at the last month+ just as an example. Huberdeau hasn’t been on the same PP unit as Toffoli for weeks and yet he’s got like 2 PP points in his last 26 or 27 games.

Like I said months ago, this team hasn’t established any credible threats especially down low to force the opposition out of their structure. They sit in their box, give the Flames all day to work along the perimeter and defend the passing lanes, so no one has the ability to go cross seam.

This is a personnel problem in my opinion, not a systems problem, they have same design as every other team and it’s up to the guys on the ice to use their skills and instincts to make plays that need to be made and in the quickest time frame.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by blankall

It really depends on your definition of dump and chase. The Flames spent a lot of time carrying the puck in but then dumping it along the boards. I guess they carried the puck into the zone....then immediately dumped it.

Is it possible that the players have to dump it in because they don’t have a choice? I mean, how many players on this team have the type of one on one moves that Johnny or to a lesser extent Tkachuk had? No one. So the only viable option that’s left is to dump and chase.

Dumping pucks in is a last resort for every NHL player, not the first. It doesn’t even make sense motive wise. What kind of moron gives up possession + zone entry willingly just to go in and chase it down for the chance to maybe gain puck possession again + zone entry?

Lastly, everyone speaks of dump and chase like it’s the plague, but it’s not even a terrible tactic. It is quintessential during playoff hockey. Rush scoring always declines going from the regular season to the post season which is why I think Darryl harps on this point so much.

The guy is a two time Cup winner with lots of playoff experience/success that spans over 4 different decades. If anyone is going to know what it takes to win in the playoffs, it’s probably him.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

He's been fine the last 40 games to be honest, especially at 5v5 - it's the first 40 games that were rough. And for him the bigger issue has been the PP - where I do think a lot of that has been more strategy and coaching than on Huberdeau alone.

First 41 games (Huberdeau played 38):
5v5 Points: 14 (T-6th)
PP: 11 (4th)
5v5 GF%: 59.4% (19 GF- 13 GA)

Last 40 games:
5v5 Points: 22 (2nd, T-40th in the NHL)
PP Points: 4 (7th)
5V5 GF%: 54.6% (30 GF - 25 GA)

The Flames have done what nobody else could do the three season prior and that's stop Huberdeau on the PP.

The three seasons prior to this one:

1) McDavid: 124 (9.5 P/60)
2) Draisaitl: 117 (8.6 P/60)
3) Huberdeau: 91 (7.0 P/60)

He comes to Calgary - 15 PP points, and 3.99 Points per 60.

This needs to be stickied.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Sutter is one problem, I’d argue that Markstrom was a much larger one.

Kadri, pretty much as expected, 50-60p and some bone headed plays.

Huberdeau, lol. Ok, let’s see next year. A guy that good simply didn’t forget to hockey.

Team was solid defensively. Had the puck a lot. Sure Sutter wants quantity and puck possession and this team was really good at that.

It still comes down to Markstrom sucking big time and a LOT of bad luck. If Sutter is hated, fine, but he’s not the main reason.

This is ####ing silly

Huberdeau drops 60 points (over half of his production) and whatever

But despite the dependence of goalies on the play in front of them,
Markstrom (and Vladar who forgot how to goalie equally, by coincidence) is the problem

Honestly, I watch the team work the puck around the boards to the point and take lame shots from afar, actively seeking garbage

Yeah, Sutter is at least part of the problem

[Dion]

Interesting "opinion" from Rob Kerr

https://twitter.com/user/status/1646586403785183232

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Dion

Interesting "opinion" from Rob Kerr

https://twitter.com/user/status/1646586403785183232

There's a reason Treliving turned down a new contract