Sutter is the problem

[Delthefunky]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

So who are the better than Sutter coach we're bringing in next season that stops us from losing all the OT games, has our shooting % climb above league average and gets the goalie save percentage to league average.

Oh...and the GM too if we've got ideas.

For me I want to run Sutter back, Treiliving up to POHO and Kyle Dubas comes in.

Agree with everything except hiring Dubas!

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think Huberdeau gets a fraction of the touches on the powerplay that Gaudreau did. Partly because he’s not the puck carrier but partly because the puck carrier rarely dished to him.

So who are we blaming for Jonathan’s issues now? Toffoli? Because the PP runs through him when it should be Huberdeau?

Toffoli is the best one shot scorer on the team. So at the very least, he keeps the defense and goaltenders honest. If Huberdeau wants to become as big of a threat as Toffoli, than he needs develop a harder more accurate shot instead of passing it 90% of the time which falls exactly into the the opposition’s strategy. They know he’s not a threat to score from the flank, so they take away his passing lanes effectively neutralizing him.

For the record, I’m not crazy about Toffoli as the top PP option either, probably speaks more to the weaknesses of this team. But he’s easily been the most dangerous guy on the man advantage for the Flames this season and his PP numbers speak to that.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It's absolutely on the GM to find the right players to fit in the system, especially when you consider that the GM in question had already made numerous mistakes acquiring players that didn't fit the prior systems that had been deployed by coaches that he personally hired.

Fit is a massive aspect of talent evaluation and roster building. If a fan like me could see it from a mile away that Huberdeau was going to struggle this season, then surely someone in that experienced management group they have should have seen it. Like honestly, I don't even know if his scouting staff even bothered to watch the Panthers play once before they even traded for him.

If our management group actually bothered to do some analysis last summer, then they would have seen Carter freakin' Verhaeghe play and would've realized that this guy should have been the target as he would have been a perfect fit under Darryl's system. I know that's the guy I noticed the most when watching Florida play last year. He even popped this season scoring 41 goals most of which came at even strength (4th in the league). The Flames missed out, I think he and his skillset could've been a heck of a player here.

Do the Flames have a plan? Flames don't seem to have much of an identity, are we a big strong team or a fast skilled team? We seem to have a mix and match group of players that didn't seem to have a lot of chemistry. Both Brad and Darryl seem content to let young guys develop in the AHL, so I don't see us embracing the youth movement as long as Darryl is involved. The chances of Identifying players to fit a particular coach is made even harder when we can't find the right coach to stick around.

I agree with the notion that the organization just doesn't seem to have a specific short and long term plan, except "win now", which overall is still very short sighted. Best move right now would be to clean house except Conroy and promote a guy like M.Love. M.Love could then embrace a long term plan starting with younger team (with a goal to make the playoffs within a set period of time). Would also be good time try and collect as many high picks and prospects.

Even the idea that Conroy could move to GM is being met with concerns that he can't fire Darryl.It is going to be hard to build a plan with conflicting idea's and a bunch of hurdles to clear.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Do the Flames have a plan? Flames don't seem to have much of an identity, are we a big strong team or a fast skilled team? We seem to have a mix and match group of players that didn't seem to have a lot of chemistry. Both Brad and Darryl seem content to let young guys develop in the AHL, so I don't see us embracing the youth movement as long as Darryl is involved. The chances of Identifying players to fit a particular coach is made even harder when we can't find the right coach to stick around.

I agree with the notion that the organization just doesn't seem to have a specific short and long term plan, except "win now", which overall is still very short sighted. Best move right now would be to clean house except Conroy and promote a guy like R.Love. R.Love could then embrace a long term plan starting with younger team (with a goal to make the playoffs within a set period of time). Would also be good time try and collect as many high picks and prospects.

Even the idea that Conroy could move to GM is being met with concerns that he can't fire Darryl.It is going to be hard to build a plan with conflicting idea's and a bunch of hurdles to clear.

I’m 100% on the rebuild bandwagon, was one of the few who was disappointed in the direction the organization took last offseason.

But I actually think this team has an identity unlike years past. They’re a big, heavy, balanced, hard working team that’s built for playoffs.

If this team didn’t see such drastic drop offs from their stars players this season, then they’d be in the playoffs. Kadri and Huberdeau are more explainable since they played on different teams last season, but Markstrom’s astronomical fall makes no sense.

The team’s defensive metrics are better than good and it’s the same team, some coaches, same systems, and roughly the same squad. How does a guy go from second in Vezina trophy voting to arguably the worst starting goaltender in the league. Markstrom gave up a ton of bad goals this season, shots from distance, giveaways, early goals, deflating goals and etc.

It’s very hard to defend his performance this season especially with his $6M cap hit. I can’t defend Darryl’s choice to use him so much either, that was by far his biggest mistake this season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

So who are we blaming for Jonathan’s issues now? Toffoli? Because the PP runs through him when it should be Huberdeau?

Toffoli is the best one shot scorer on the team. So at the very least, he keeps the defense and goaltenders honest. If Huberdeau wants to become as big of a threat as Toffoli, than he needs develop a harder more accurate shot instead of passing it 90% of the time which falls exactly into the the opposition’s strategy. They know he’s not a threat to score from the flank, so they take away his passing lanes effectively neutralizing him.

For the record, I’m not crazy about Toffoli as the top PP option either, probably speaks more to the weaknesses of this team. But he’s easily been the most dangerous guy on the man advantage for the Flames this season and his PP numbers speak to that.

It’s not just me who noticed that Lindholm and Huberdeau were almost excluded from the powerplay when they were on with Kadri, Toffoli and Andersson. I have no idea who to “blame”. I’m sure it was just habit. But it was never corrected. And then, of course, Huberdeau and Toffoli were moved to different units for some weird reason.

Look, Huberdeau just set a LW record for assists. He’s not being used to his strengths. He needs lots of touches. And the last month has shown that he’s a PPG guy when he is freed up to make plays. Second only to Toffoli in points down the stretch.

[FlamesAddiction]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I am listening to the After Burner segment from today, and they said that Huberdeau is on the cusp of breaking the record for biggest point decline from one season to the next. He is currently 60 points off his total from last year. The previous record was Bill Barber who dropped 58 point between 1976 and 1977.

Huberdeau could get 3 points tomorrow, but it is unlikely.

That can't be all on on Sutter.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I am listening to the After Burner segment from today, and they said that Huberdeau is on the cusp of breaking the record for biggest point decline from one season to the next. He is currently 60 points off his total from last year. The previous record was Bill Barber who dropped 58 point between 1976 and 1977.

Huberdeau could get 3 points tomorrow, but it is unlikely.

That can't be all on on Sutter.

I think Sutter diagnosed it perfectly....Hubby started taking a sh*t in week 3 and hasn't gotten off the can since...

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I am listening to the After Burner segment from today, and they said that Huberdeau is on the cusp of breaking the record for biggest point decline from one season to the next. He is currently 60 points off his total from last year. The previous record was Bill Barber who dropped 58 point between 1976 and 1977.

Huberdeau could get 3 points tomorrow, but it is unlikely.

That can't be all on on Sutter.

Well Sutter and the mean players who don’t pass to him enough.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s not just me who noticed that Lindholm and Huberdeau were almost excluded from the powerplay when they were on with Kadri, Toffoli and Andersson. I have no idea who to “blame”. I’m sure it was just habit. But it was never corrected. And then, of course, Huberdeau and Toffoli were moved to different units for some weird reason.

Look, Huberdeau just set a LW record for assists. He’s not being used to his strengths. He needs lots of touches. And the last month has shown that he’s a PPG guy when he is freed up to make plays. Second only to Toffoli in points down the stretch.

Huberdeau has always been streaky. If you cherry pick his last 15 games, he has 3 goals and 13 points. If that’s him on a heater, it’s not nearly good enough.

I do admire you defending him but he hasn’t been good enough this year and that’s pretty much all on him IMO.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Huberdeau last game went to the net to screen the goalie

That’s something anybody can do, but the guy a year removed from the single season point record for assists by a LW is your screen?

Nah. Not the coach. Probably Huby’s fresh idea how he can help the team, since it has been made clear they have no skill


I am fine to send Sutter back to the farm

[Erick Estrada]

I am so over Sutter hockey. Brent and Darryl both have a keen ability to suck all the life and fun out of a season for fans. If they can take the joy out of a season for fans just imagine what it's like playing for these guys and having to live with them on a daily basis. I agree with above as it's time to send him back to the farm for good as it's time to close that chapter for good.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Huberdeau has always been streaky. If you cherry pick his last 15 games, he has 3 goals and 13 points. If that’s him on a heater, it’s not nearly good enough.

I do admire you defending him but he hasn’t been good enough this year and that’s pretty much all on him IMO.

Dude, who said he’s been good enough? Who is defending? Who said heater?

I’m commenting on what happened, no more, no less. You seem like there has to be a player blamed or something. I’m saying what has to happen to make things better. And no, it’s not going to be that a player who set a record for assists suddenly becomes a sniper. It’s going to be that he sets people up like he did in in Fla.

Huberdeau improved over the last month, and while it’s not enough, it’s still better than it was. So why was that? There is one fairly obvious reason, and a few others which are less so.

As for sneering at 3 goals and 13 points in 15 games, name me a better Flame not named Toffoli.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I think Sutter diagnosed it perfectly....Hubby started taking a sh*t in week 3 and hasn't gotten off the can since...

Darryl was in the stall next to him!

[Paulie Walnuts]

Whoever said Huberdeau is streaky doesn't watch.

His longest pointless streak prior to coming here was 5 games in the covid season and 2 games last season otherwise he contributes in every game.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well first of all, Flames did not “grind it along the boards”. Nor did Dr hey “dump and chase” to quote another misconception. Lots of days that shows the Flames carry the puck in and generate odd man rushes.

As for Pop and Andy Reid adapting their systems. How so? Both are great coaches who have been able to win when armed with great players. They don’t do so well when they don’t have great players.

No great coach is coaching to get his players great statistics. Give me a coach who knows how to implement a winning system and a team of players who are skilled and willing to listen.

The Flames absolute grind it along the boards the stats prove it with the most perimeter shots.

No one said they are dump and chase.

Also Reid and Pop have won with less than stellar players.

Darryl outside last year has proven to show he can take star players and cripple their offensive output.

[blankall]

This team has all the pieces to be great. The problem is deployment and use of the players.

Last year Huberdeau was able to turn just about every scrub he played with into a PPG and 30g player. He's good. You just need to have a game plan that takes advantage of his skill. Having him skate up and down and take shots from the perimeter is not a good use of his skill. I have a massively hard time believing that players like Duclair, Bennett, Marchment, Reinhart, etc.. could all have career years playing with Huberdeau, yet one year later superior players, and previously prolific goal scorers, like Kadri, Mangiapane, Toffoli, etc... all just happen to not have chemistry with Huberdeau.

You cannot have all 4 lines playing the same style of hockey and expect to succeed. It makes zero sense. You have to let players play to their strengths.

The most frustrating part is the Flames have a the group makeup to make it work. They could have easily deployed a top scoring line, a top shut down line, and a bottom six filled with tenacious and physical energy guys and hungry young guys. Instead we got 4 lines of skating up and down and high volume shots. It's a classic case of relying on analytics without taking into account the individual elements of each player. Sure, odds are your team will win if you control the puck more and take more shots. That doesn't mean Huberdeau will be effective.

You could also tell what practices were like by watching the games. It was clear they skated a lot until they couldn't skate anymore in practice. It was also very clear that almost no offensive plays were practiced and almost no forwards practiced receiving passes from Huberdeau. So many times Huberdeau through out great passes to have guys handle them like grenades. What's this? A pass in the slot? That's not a perimeter shot. I have no idea what to do. That's not part of the game plan. We definitely don't want to have multiple players commit to scoring, that might result in the team not being able to skat back to the defensive zone.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

The Flames absolute grind it along the boards the stats prove it with the most perimeter shots.

No one said they are dump and chase.

Also Reid and Pop have won with less than stellar players.

Darryl outside last year has proven to show he can take star players and cripple their offensive output.

It really depends on your definition of dump and chase. The Flames spent a lot of time carrying the puck in but then dumping it along the boards. I guess they carried the puck into the zone....then immediately dumped it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

This team has all the pieces to be great. The problem is deployment and use of the players.

Last year Huberdeau was able to turn just about every scrub he played with into a PPG and 30g player. He's good. You just need to have a game plan that takes advantage of his skill. Having him skate up and down and take shots from the perimeter is not a good use of his skill. I have a massively hard time believing that players like Duclair, Bennett, Marchment, Reinhart, etc.. could all have career years playing with Huberdeau, yet one year later superior players, and previously prolific goal scorers, like Kadri, Mangiapane, Toffoli, etc... all just happen to not have chemistry with Huberdeau.

You cannot have all 4 lines playing the same style of hockey and expect to succeed. It makes zero sense. You have to let players play to their strengths.

The most frustrating part is the Flames have a the group makeup to make it work. They could have easily deployed a top scoring line, a top shut down line, and a bottom six filled with tenacious and physical energy guys and hungry young guys. Instead we got 4 lines of skating up and down and high volume shots. It's a classic case of relying on analytics without taking into account the individual elements of each player. Sure, odds are your team will win if you control the puck more and take more shots. That doesn't mean Huberdeau will be effective.

You could also tell what practices were like by watching the games. It was clear they skated a lot until they couldn't skate anymore in practice. It was also very clear that almost no offensive plays were practiced and almost no forwards practiced receiving passes from Huberdeau. So many times Huberdeau through out great passes to have guys handle them like grenades. What's this? A pass in the slot? That's not a perimeter shot. I have no idea what to do. That's not part of the game plan. We definitely don't want to have multiple players commit to scoring, that might result in the team not being able to skat back to the defensive zone.

I agree that Huberdeau had good passes into the slot that were flubbed. I wish he'd made more all the way to the other side, or to a Dman floating into the high slot (like Zadorov the other night).

They tended to use Toffoli on the left, for his RH shot, which didn't work well with Huberdeau preferring to pass from that side as well. Speaking which I'd imagine that 75-80% of Calgary's power play shots came from the left side. That's easy to defend when it's so predictable.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by blankall

This team has all the pieces to be great. The problem is deployment and use of the players.

Last year Huberdeau was able to turn just about every scrub he played with into a PPG and 30g player. He's good. You just need to have a game plan that takes advantage of his skill. Having him skate up and down and take shots from the perimeter is not a good use of his skill. I have a massively hard time believing that players like Duclair, Bennett, Marchment, Reinhart, etc.. could all have career years playing with Huberdeau, yet one year later superior players, and previously prolific goal scorers, like Kadri, Mangiapane, Toffoli, etc... all just happen to not have chemistry with Huberdeau.

You cannot have all 4 lines playing the same style of hockey and expect to succeed. It makes zero sense. You have to let players play to their strengths.

The most frustrating part is the Flames have a the group makeup to make it work. They could have easily deployed a top scoring line, a top shut down line, and a bottom six filled with tenacious and physical energy guys and hungry young guys. Instead we got 4 lines of skating up and down and high volume shots. It's a classic case of relying on analytics without taking into account the individual elements of each player. Sure, odds are your team will win if you control the puck more and take more shots. That doesn't mean Huberdeau will be effective.

You could also tell what practices were like by watching the games. It was clear they skated a lot until they couldn't skate anymore in practice. It was also very clear that almost no offensive plays were practiced and almost no forwards practiced receiving passes from Huberdeau. So many times Huberdeau through out great passes to have guys handle them like grenades. What's this? A pass in the slot? That's not a perimeter shot. I have no idea what to do. That's not part of the game plan. We definitely don't want to have multiple players commit to scoring, that might result in the team not being able to skat back to the defensive zone.

I just don't agree.

Markstrom isn't a top goalie. He may bounce back, but his three seasons for the Flames have been Average, Top of the League, Bottom of the League - he's average.

Kadri is going to 33 years old next year, and he's a career 50 point guy.

Lindholm has only been a centre for two(?) full NHL seasons at this stage. He was fantastic when playing with Gaudreau and Tkachuk (two of the top-10 wingers in the league), and this year he showed himself to be a 60 point centre. He's not a game changer - and we also don't know if he wants to be here beyond this contract that has 1 season left on it.

Andersson and Weegar are very good defencemen, but they aren't elite. They're not prime aged Doughty or Hedman or even prime aged Pietrangelo.

This team does not have the top-end talent to be a great team.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Huberdeau has always been streaky. If you cherry pick his last 15 games, he has 3 goals and 13 points. If that’s him on a heater, it’s not nearly good enough.

I do admire you defending him but he hasn’t been good enough this year and that’s pretty much all on him IMO.

He's been fine the last 40 games to be honest, especially at 5v5 - it's the first 40 games that were rough. And for him the bigger issue has been the PP - where I do think a lot of that has been more strategy and coaching than on Huberdeau alone.

First 41 games (Huberdeau played 38):
5v5 Points: 14 (T-6th)
PP: 11 (4th)
5v5 GF%: 59.4% (19 GF- 13 GA)

Last 40 games:
5v5 Points: 22 (2nd, T-40th in the NHL)
PP Points: 4 (7th)
5V5 GF%: 54.6% (30 GF - 25 GA)

The Flames have done what nobody else could do the three season prior and that's stop Huberdeau on the PP.

The three seasons prior to this one:

1) McDavid: 124 (9.5 P/60)
2) Draisaitl: 117 (8.6 P/60)
3) Huberdeau: 91 (7.0 P/60)

He comes to Calgary - 15 PP points, and 3.99 Points per 60.