[PGT] still alive but barely

[afc wimbledon]

well the love hate part of hockey is knowing you can build the fastest most skilled team in the league, dominate the regular season, win the Presidents Trophy and then get the crap kicked out of you in the playoffs when the refs put the whistles away and toughness is all that counts

[CFO]

In highlight. Flames should of pushed to sign MK to max deal instead of a bridge and made him captain. At that point you trade Gio, Gaudreau and Monahan. Keep Bennett and retool with salary cap room and assets.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

well the love hate part of hockey is knowing you can build the fastest most skilled team in the league, dominate the regular season, win the Presidents Trophy and then get the crap kicked out of you in the playoffs when the refs put the whistles away and toughness is all that counts

Didn’t the number of power plays increase last year? I remember that being a big complaint from a lot of hockey fans

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Didn’t the number of power plays increase last year? I remember that being a big complaint from a lot of hockey fans

It did. It leveled out as the playoffs went on, but the idea of "refs let them play" in the playoffs is dead.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Except that in that run the Flames had a Hart Trophy candidate Iginla is his prime and a Vezina guy in Kiprudoff leading them. In any series they potentially had the best player.

This current group doesn't have anyone like that. Maybe Markstrom if he can find his game, but Goaltending doesn't have as big an impact as it did 20 years ago and this years Markstrom can't string 3 good games together. Last year Ottenger was great...still not enough to win the series. Teams need impact forwards and defenseman to win now.

Actually, comparing last year's Stars with the '04 Flames does make a lot of sense. Both teams had a brick wall in net. Thing is, the Stars suddenly lost their #1C right before game 7. With him in the lineup there's a very strong chance they win that game. Now think back to '04 game 7 vs the Canucks, what kind of effect it would have had on the team if Conny was suddenly unavailable for that game. Very strong chance the Canucks win that game and the series.

I'd argue goaltending is just as important now as it ever was.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It did. It leveled out as the playoffs went on, but the idea of "refs let them play" in the playoffs is dead.

The McDavid rule changed things

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Didn’t the number of power plays increase last year? I remember that being a big complaint from a lot of hockey fans

Yeah. Pretty sure there was a notable change in how the games were called.

Have a feeling that soon this will no longer be the hardest trophy to win in sports.

Soon, baby poo soft, all-skill teams will have a legitimate shot at it without suffering a single broken rib along the way.

NHL has gone soft.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Personally, I think all this low vs high quality shot talk has been overstated a bit. Does Darryl emphasis a lot of point shots, sure. But is it that reason this team has struggled to score? I don’t think so. I mean, last year’s #6 ranked offense played in the exact same system with the exact same tactics and strategies. So why did these tactics work last year, but this year hasn’t? Is it the tactics or is it the players?

For me, it’s the players. Sure, point shots are low quality shots that have a low percentage of going in. But it’s probably akin to that of a dman ringing the puck around the boards instead. Both plays effectively ease the pressure and direct it elsewhere. If the 5 guys do their jobs and check properly, then it really shouldn’t matter whether it’s a point shot or a ring around or even a puck flip. The team should be able to still retain possession, read and make plays.

Last year’s 1st line was brilliant in this regard. They played under the very same tactics, but they were successful not only because they checked effectively, but they also took advantage of the chaos that ensued to find seams and openings to create dangerous chances from the slot. This team lacks that kind of ability. They don’t have the types of players with the vision, skill and awareness to make quick reads and execute pinpoint plays.

I think you are on to something but it’s a bit more than that

The team played a style, more consistently, across the bottom 3 lines. The 13-28-19 line played their own game once they checked and retrieved the puck. They used stretch passes, generated off the rush. Nobody was putting the puck in Gaudreau’s corner for him to bang around and retrieve it.

(Also another thing I mentioned elsewhere was the PP setup. Tkachuk in front to screen or tip, or step aside for the quick touch pass out to Lindholm in the slot.)

This team has players with high skill but the coach doesn’t play them together. He hasn’t loaded up a top line.

And where last year Gaudreau would carry the puck, this year you see Huberdeau dump it in. They aren’t playing the same game on offense. They are doing what the coach wants

The high skill that the players had last year, and the success, gave them more carte blanche to do their own thing. You heard Sutter grumbling about people doing things for personal stats

To me, it is right on point. People have been complaining all year about it being boring and ineffective because the high skill guys are playing a low skill game


And one more thing - they miss Kylington and his puck moving ability more than a lot of people realize

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by CFO

In highlight. Flames should of pushed to sign MK to max deal instead of a bridge and made him captain. At that point you trade Gio, Gaudreau and Monahan. Keep Bennett and retool with salary cap room and assets.

There was no viable reason to trade Monny and Johnny at that time.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think you are on to something but it’s a bit more than that

The team played a style, more consistently, across the bottom 3 lines. The 13-28-19 line played their own game once they checked and retrieved the puck. They used stretch passes, generated off the rush. Nobody was putting the puck in Gaudreau’s corner for him to bang around and retrieve it.

(Also another thing I mentioned elsewhere was the PP setup. Tkachuk in front to screen or tip, or step aside for the quick touch pass out to Lindholm in the slot.)

This team has players with high skill but the coach doesn’t play them together. He hasn’t loaded up a top line.

And where last year Gaudreau would carry the puck, this year you see Huberdeau dump it in. They aren’t playing the same game on offense. They are doing what the coach wants

The high skill that the players had last year, and the success, gave them more carte blanche to do their own thing. You heard Sutter grumbling about people doing things for personal stats

To me, it is right on point. People have been complaining all year about it being boring and ineffective because the high skill guys are playing a low skill game


And one more thing - they miss Kylington and his puck moving ability more than a lot of people realize

How anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion the star players are playing the same game as last season.

Johnny and Matthew did what they wanted, Huberdeau and crew are doing what the system wants.

John Stevens even said that he knew Sutter was not happy with the stars last year padding stats and playing for numbers. You aren't going to bench two 100 point players to teach a lesson so he just rode that line.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

How anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion the star players are playing the same game as last season.

Johnny and Matthew did what they wanted, Huberdeau and crew are doing what the system wants.

John Stevens even said that he knew Sutter was not happy with the stars last year padding stats and playing for numbers. You aren't going to bench two 100 point players to teach a lesson so he just rode that line.

They're not playing the same game because they're different players.

Sutter spent all season talking about how Gaudreau was learning to play on the defensive side of the puck, and getting better at it.

That's following the system.

They were better offensive players, and scored more often in the offensive zone.

I don't think the system changed. Nor do I think there's a laundry list of restrictions of what happens in the offensive zone other than simple F3 and pinch accountability.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They're not playing the same game because they're different players.

Sutter spent all season talking about how Gaudreau was learning to play on the defensive side of the puck, and getting better at it.

That's following the system.

They were better offensive players, and scored more often in the offensive zone.

I don't think the system changed. Nor do I think there's a laundry list of restrictions of what happens in the offensive zone other than simple F3 and pinch accountability.

So 115 point Gaudreau was a better offensive player than 115 point (playing with less skilled linemates) Huberdeau?

I am not buying what you are selling. It doesn’t make sense

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So 115 point Gaudreau was a better offensive player than 115 point (playing with less skilled linemates) Huberdeau?

I am not buying what you are selling. It doesn’t make sense

You never buy what I'm selling!

But I don't think the math is that simple. It's not like both players are frozen in time.

Huberdeau isn't 115 point Huberdeau this season, and Kadri isn't a replacement for Tkachuk.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think you are on to something but it’s a bit more than that

The team played a style, more consistently, across the bottom 3 lines. The 13-28-19 line played their own game once they checked and retrieved the puck. They used stretch passes, generated off the rush. Nobody was putting the puck in Gaudreau’s corner for him to bang around and retrieve it.

(Also another thing I mentioned elsewhere was the PP setup. Tkachuk in front to screen or tip, or step aside for the quick touch pass out to Lindholm in the slot.)

This team has players with high skill but the coach doesn’t play them together. He hasn’t loaded up a top line.

And where last year Gaudreau would carry the puck, this year you see Huberdeau dump it in. They aren’t playing the same game on offense. They are doing what the coach wants

The high skill that the players had last year, and the success, gave them more carte blanche to do their own thing. You heard Sutter grumbling about people doing things for personal stats

To me, it is right on point. People have been complaining all year about it being boring and ineffective because the high skill guys are playing a low skill game


And one more thing - they miss Kylington and his puck moving ability more than a lot of people realize

Honestly, I don't think Darryl asks his guys to dump and chase at all. I think dumping and chasing is a byproduct of the type of hockey that's generally being played though. When both teams are playing tight checking hockey, there's just not going to be a lot of room in the neutral zone for a lot of rush chances, so you have to dump the puck in based on how the opposition defense defends you.

Tkachuk and Gaudreau were unbelieve at breaking out of their own zone and creating on the rush though. The opposition game planned every night to stop that trio, but no matter what tactic they deployed, they couldn't do a damn thing about it, they were virtually unstoppable. You'd have Gaudreau pushing the pace of the play, crossing east to west allowing Tkachuk to jump in to the rush, crisscrossing to confuse the defense and then the two would do their give and go thing and then somehow finding Lindholm as the trailer to unleash his shot. I mean, it's not hard to see why he potted 42 last year yet has seen an almost 50% decline this season.

As for your Huberdeau point, he doesn't have the same skillset Gaudreau has. He's got the same vision and the same soft hands/deft touch. But he doesn't have the same boots or the lateral moves/agility to drive the pace of play and push back defenders like Gaudreau did. Heck, he and Kadri start more of their shifts in the offensive zone than any other regular (F) on the team, so his bigger problem right now is probably more so about creating chances when he's starting in the OZone rather than trying to generate rush chances from the DZone up.

That hearkens back to what I've been talking about all season with him struggling to check for his chances. If he's going to start in the offensive zone all the time, then he's gotta learn how to close gaps quicker and win more 50/50s because then, he'll get more chances to use his vision to find open linemates. We haven't seen these kinds of efforts from him nearly enough this season.

[GioforPM]

^ There’s a lot of rose coloured glasses when it comes to memories of Gaudreau. He was all that in his last season. Without the Lindholm-Tkachuk combo the previous couple years he was very predictable and people talked a lot about how defences had figured him out.

Last season was lightning on a bottle for Gaudreau almost as much as Huberdeau. He’s had a 40 point drop himself this year.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

That 14-15 season was the most fun I've had in a Flames season since 03-04...but probably ends up being the season that set this franchise back more than any other.

So really you're to blame.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

But the Flames did accept a full on re-build. Trading Bouwmeester and Iggy was the acceptance of a full on re-build.

They drafted Monahan 6th overall, and Bennett 4th overall, and going into the 14-15 season more people expected them to be in the McDavid lottery than expected them to be a playoff team.

But then the lucky 14-15 season happened and it changed everything.

Giordano emerged as a Norris candidate, the pairing with Brodie became an elite pairing. Monahan put up 30 and 30. Gaudreau put up a calder worthy season. And Hudler led the league in 5v5 points which was unexpected.

That 14-15 season still ends up being the turning point. If they end up with McDavid instead of the Oilers (which would have been way more worthy), then this isn't even a discussion.

That 14-15 season was the most fun I've had in a Flames season since 03-04...but probably ends up being the season that set this franchise back more than any other.

it that's how it is being characterized, then I am not sure why people are so against a full on rebuild, since Calgary apparently was in the process of doing that previously.

a lot of people have the belief the ownership group would never accept a rebuild.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

How anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion the star players are playing the same game as last season.

Johnny and Matthew did what they wanted, Huberdeau and crew are doing what the system wants.

John Stevens even said that he knew Sutter was not happy with the stars last year padding stats and playing for numbers. You aren't going to bench two 100 point players to teach a lesson so he just rode that line.

What? If Gaudreau and Tkachuk weren't playing Darryl's system properly, then why did Darryl reward them with so many minutes? Why was Gaudreau getting 18+ while Huberdeau gets 16+? Maybe it's Huberdeau who isn't playing the system correctly.

Also, what happened last season when the team was down a goal, which by the way, didn't even happen that often? Darryl threw the top line out there as much as he could, double shifted them because he trusted them so much.

Does Huberdeau and his line get the same type of opportunities? No and it's because Darryl doesn't have the same trust level in Huberdeau and his line, so he'd rather roll all four lines instead. Gaudreau had 21 instances where he played 20+minutes last year, Huberdeau this season, has 3 despite the team playing in what, 50 one goal games this season?

If you watched carefully last year, you'd know that Tkachuk and Gaudreau played the system to perfection. They were consistent, they were connected, they checked effectively in all 3 zones and they played the game the right way. That's why they were collectively +60 in their goal differential and scored 124 goals as a trio. That line played Darryl's system correctly and they were rewarded with one of the best 2 way seasons in NHL history.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Honestly, I don't think Darryl asks his guys to dump and chase at all. I think dumping and chasing is a byproduct of the type of hockey that's generally being played though. When both teams are playing tight checking hockey, there's just not going to be a lot of room in the neutral zone for a lot of rush chances, so you have to dump the puck in based on how the opposition defense defends you.

Tkachuk and Gaudreau were unbelieve at breaking out of their own zone and creating on the rush though. The opposition game planned every night to stop that trio, but no matter what tactic they deployed, they couldn't do a damn thing about it, they were virtually unstoppable. You'd have Gaudreau pushing the pace of the play, crossing east to west allowing Tkachuk to jump in to the rush, crisscrossing to confuse the defense and then the two would do their give and go thing and then somehow finding Lindholm as the trailer to unleash his shot. I mean, it's not hard to see why he potted 42 last year yet has seen an almost 50% decline this season.

As for your Huberdeau point, he doesn't have the same skillset Gaudreau has. He's got the same vision and the same soft hands/deft touch. But he doesn't have the same boots or the lateral moves/agility to drive the pace of play and push back defenders like Gaudreau did. Heck, he and Kadri start more of their shifts in the offensive zone than any other regular (F) on the team, so his bigger problem right now is probably more so about creating chances when he's starting in the OZone rather than trying to generate rush chances from the DZone up.

That hearkens back to what I've been talking about all season with him struggling to check for his chances. If he's going to start in the offensive zone all the time, then he's gotta learn how to close gaps quicker and win more 50/50s because then, he'll get more chances to use his vision to find open linemates. We haven't seen these kinds of efforts from him nearly enough this season.

Huberdeau has said they play a more north-south game here, compared to the east-west in Florida

Damn right he is being asked to dump and chase. Many times he skates up to the blue line and dumps it in. As a fan of skill, it’s been frustrating to watch

He is being a good soldier and it stinks to watch

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

^ There’s a lot of rose coloured glasses when it comes to memories of Gaudreau. He was all that in his last season. Without the Lindholm-Tkachuk combo the previous couple years he was very predictable and people talked a lot about how defences had figured him out.

Last season was lightning on a bottle for Gaudreau almost as much as Huberdeau. He’s had a 40 point drop himself this year.

Yeah it's called a proper supporting cast. For years management tried to figure out what was wrong with Gaudreau-Monahan, they tried to stick all kinds of wingers with them to varying levels of success like Ferland, Brouwer, Neal, Bennett, Lindholm, Leivo, Ritchie, Simon and etc. Turns out they just needed to replace Monahan + winger with Lindholm + Tkachuk.

Lindholm and Tkachuk are outstanding defensive zone players whereas Gaudreau and Monahan are not. Once they fixed that, then that changed everything. Suddenly, instead of the top line getting hemmed in their own zone for entire shifts on a regular basis, they were now turning those DZone starts/shifts into consistent rush scoring opportunities. That was the beauty of that trio, all 3 forwards had their own personal flaws, but as I've said a thousand times, together, they hid each other's flaws while at the same time, accentuating their strengths. That's the type of chemistry they had.