[PGT] still alive but barely

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

This is the Calgary Flames way. Gotta stay in the middle and hope for another 04 run to fall in our laps

I think at this point its the Canadian way

[CGY12]

Its super apparent to me that the team is too slow. In todays era of hockey, regardless of standings, position, rank, if your team is slow, you got big problems and its why the Flames have sucked against these bad teams. They have youth and speed which gives the Flames trouble.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The team was pretty close to making the playoffs.

They are nowhere close to competing for a Cup.

And they'll now be one year older with albatross contracts kicking in.

Last year's team was close, with 2 legit superstars and we still needed 1 more play driving player to really be a true contender.

We now don't have those 2 guys, or the any play driving forwards and no goaltending.
We are 3-4 core pieces away, not even remotely close.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

This is the Calgary Flames way. Gotta stay in the middle and hope for another 04 run to fall in our laps

yup.

Every Canadian team has drafted higher than Calgary. Toronto #1, Montreal #1, Edmonton we all know. Vancouver and Winnipeg both drafted second. Ottawa 3rd (but was seeded 2nd)

Only Calgary and Winnipeg (who jumped from 7 to 2 in the lottery) haven't accepted a full on rebuild at some point in time.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

yup.

Every Canadian team has drafted higher than Calgary. Toronto #1, Montreal #1, Edmonton we all know. Vancouver and Winnipeg both drafted second. Ottawa 3rd (but was seeded 2nd)

Only Calgary and Winnipeg (who jumped from 7 to 2 in the lottery) haven't accepted a full on rebuild at some point in time.

Wow, I just looked up the Winnipeg draft history. In consecutive years, they drafted Scheifele, Trouba, Morrissey, Ehlers, Connor, and Laine. In the last 6 years, nothing. I mean, Perfetti was pretty good but got hurt, and Heinola looked impressive at the WJC at least. Imagine if they kept picking players of that caliber.

[butterfly]

Ottawa picked top 3 for five years in a row, including three 1OAs, and did nothing with it. Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Berard, and Phillips.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Ottawa picked top 3 for five years in a row, including three 1OAs, and did nothing with it. Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Berard, and Phillips.

Winnipeg's drafting run gave them the foundation for a strong team, that's for sure.

it's two pronged challenge. ID'ing talent (this includes projection) and developing that talent.

In theory, picking top 5, you should be getting a quality, long term NHLer. But that is not the case, just a much better chance at landing a star player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sorry. I am afraid that Bingo tells me this is just a subjective narrative

Even though guys like Millen and Friedman have noticed this trend after watching enough games, I have been advised that in fact, the stats that translate to expected goals don’t capture it so until further notice, it is something I have made up

Even though you can point out the egregious breakdowns on the Flames which do not have a corresponding equivalent on the other side, game after game, it is still not a thing

What a terrible summary of what I said.

Literally fabricated ...

Feel better?

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

This is the Calgary Flames way. Gotta stay in the middle and hope for another 04 run to fall in our laps

Except that in that run the Flames had a Hart Trophy candidate Iginla is his prime and a Vezina guy in Kiprudoff leading them. In any series they potentially had the best player.

This current group doesn't have anyone like that. Maybe Markstrom if he can find his game, but Goaltending doesn't have as big an impact as it did 20 years ago and this years Markstrom can't string 3 good games together. Last year Ottenger was great...still not enough to win the series. Teams need impact forwards and defenseman to win now.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Its super apparent to me that the team is too slow. In todays era of hockey, regardless of standings, position, rank, if your team is slow, you got big problems and its why the Flames have sucked against these bad teams. They have youth and speed which gives the Flames trouble.

Speed has been the undoing of this team for what seems like a few years. There's a reason they looked so out of sorts against the Oilers. For some reason, speed completely undoes their structure.

I'm all for having different looks on the roster, which could include heavy 4th liners who aren't as fleet-afoot, but you'd better have the counterpunch to be able to play the speed game as well.

We haven't had that to the same level the league has evolved, and it's exposed us.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Except that in that run the Flames had a Hart Trophy candidate Iginla is his prime and a Vezina guy in Kiprudoff leading them. In any series they potentially had the best player.

This current group doesn't have anyone like that. Maybe Markstrom if he can find his game, but Goaltending doesn't have as big an impact as it did 20 years ago and this years Markstrom can't string 3 good games together. Last year Ottenger was great...still not enough to win the series. Teams need impact forwards and defenseman to win now.

I agree with most of this. If the Flames this year had an Iggy they’d be in a playoff spot even with Markstrom’s bad season. That’s why I can’t fully blame this season on goaltending. They don’t have the elite talent up front to be contenders

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Speed has been the undoing of this team for what seems like a few years. There's a reason they looked so out of sorts against the Oilers. For some reason, speed completely undoes their structure.

I'm all for having different looks on the roster, which could include heavy 4th liners who aren't as fleet-afoot, but you'd better have the counterpunch to be able to play the speed game as well.

We haven't had that to the same level the league has evolved, and it's exposed us.

Their fastest players are not their best ones. Dube/Coleman/Duehr. That's it for guys who have above average speed. And they have a bunch of downright slower guys. Toffoli, Hubderdeau are darned slow for skill guys, and Lucic is a real liability on backchecking and Dzone coverage.

Calgary has always neglected speed, even when they had better teams.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Only Calgary and Winnipeg (who jumped from 7 to 2 in the lottery) haven't accepted a full on rebuild at some point in time.

But the Flames did accept a full on re-build. Trading Bouwmeester and Iggy was the acceptance of a full on re-build.

They drafted Monahan 6th overall, and Bennett 4th overall, and going into the 14-15 season more people expected them to be in the McDavid lottery than expected them to be a playoff team.

But then the lucky 14-15 season happened and it changed everything.

Giordano emerged as a Norris candidate, the pairing with Brodie became an elite pairing. Monahan put up 30 and 30. Gaudreau put up a calder worthy season. And Hudler led the league in 5v5 points which was unexpected.

That 14-15 season still ends up being the turning point. If they end up with McDavid instead of the Oilers (which would have been way more worthy), then this isn't even a discussion.

That 14-15 season was the most fun I've had in a Flames season since 03-04...but probably ends up being the season that set this franchise back more than any other.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

But the Flames did accept a full on re-build. Trading Bouwmeester and Iggy was the acceptance of a full on re-build.

They drafted Monahan 6th overall, and Bennett 4th overall, and going into the 14-15 season more people expected them to be in the McDavid lottery than expected them to be a playoff team.

But then the lucky 14-15 season happened and it changed everything.

Giordano emerged as a Norris candidate, the pairing with Brodie became an elite pairing. Monahan put up 30 and 30. Gaudreau put up a calder worthy season. And Hudler led the league in 5v5 points which was unexpected.

That 14-15 season still ends up being the turning point. If they end up with McDavid instead of the Oilers (which would have been way more worthy), then this isn't even a discussion.

That 14-15 season was the most fun I've had in a Flames season since 03-04...but probably ends up being the season that set this franchise back more than any other.

I agree with you but worry the 2022 offseason may be a "hold my beer" moment.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

I still think this is something about Sutter's system this year getting hacked by opposition and broken, but maybe people don't talk about that more because it's not easy to track exactly how it's being done.

How is the system actually broken though? The team was competitive this season, not in the dwelling in the basement. They also control a lot of the game, they’re not constantly getting outplayed and looking like a deer in the headlights. They have also played in an extraordinary amount of one goal games, I think they’re about to set a record for amount of one game games they’ve played in. So that means they’re in every game and competitive, they might not win the majority of them.

But who knows where they’d be if they just got that on extra save or one extra goal this season. Both the goaltenders and skaters are guilty of this and they’ve both kind of conspired together this year to put the Flames in the position they’re currently in. None of the results or evidence screams of broken system to me.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Canuck fans should be excited I listened to Tocchet after the game and oh boy if he has his way all that skill and points thats out the window. Time to grind it down and lock things up, this summer guys will be focused on how to lock it up.

Still remember when he was hired and said the league it too skilled now need to figure out how to lock up that skill.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

In one respect it's actually rather simple: shot location.

Per an earlier post I made...when a good shot is made from the blue line at something close to 100 mph it traverses the 64' in something like half a second. Most are probably somewhat slower than that...so let's say .75 sec.

That is more than ample time for an NHL goalie to set, move, position, track and stop a puck from a clear shot. Even a blazing shot at 100 mph gives him just under a half second to set. That's pretty doable by today's goalies.

All those long shots get soaked up most of the time, or deflected...and that slows the puck too...more time.

The more shots taken from there, the less likely a goal will be scored.

There was, on the Fan960 on some holiday a discussion about how boxes and movement were formed by COL in the last playoff and how subbing one guy in and out on the PP, or even 5-on-5 allowed them to shoot from closer in, creating less time for goalies and D-men to adjust. Flames don't really do that. It's always back to Raz to play pitch and catch with Lindy. Not a recipe for PP success or even strength opportunities.

Are there other issues? Sure...lack of physical play too often, bad starts, crappy 'tending...this list is long this year.

Personally, I think all this low vs high quality shot talk has been overstated a bit. Does Darryl emphasis a lot of point shots, sure. But is it that reason this team has struggled to score? I don’t think so. I mean, last year’s #6 ranked offense played in the exact same system with the exact same tactics and strategies. So why did these tactics work last year, but this year hasn’t? Is it the tactics or is it the players?

For me, it’s the players. Sure, point shots are low quality shots that have a low percentage of going in. But it’s probably akin to that of a dman ringing the puck around the boards instead. Both plays effectively ease the pressure and direct it elsewhere. If the 5 guys do their jobs and check properly, then it really shouldn’t matter whether it’s a point shot or a ring around or even a puck flip. The team should be able to still retain possession, read and make plays.

Last year’s 1st line was brilliant in this regard. They played under the very same tactics, but they were successful not only because they checked effectively, but they also took advantage of the chaos that ensued to find seams and openings to create dangerous chances from the slot. This team lacks that kind of ability. They don’t have the types of players with the vision, skill and awareness to make quick reads and execute pinpoint plays.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

But the Flames did accept a full on re-build. Trading Bouwmeester and Iggy was the acceptance of a full on re-build.

They drafted Monahan 6th overall, and Bennett 4th overall, and going into the 14-15 season more people expected them to be in the McDavid lottery than expected them to be a playoff team.

But then the lucky 14-15 season happened and it changed everything.

Giordano emerged as a Norris candidate, the pairing with Brodie became an elite pairing. Monahan put up 30 and 30. Gaudreau put up a calder worthy season. And Hudler led the league in 5v5 points which was unexpected.

That 14-15 season still ends up being the turning point. If they end up with McDavid instead of the Oilers (which would have been way more worthy), then this isn't even a discussion.

That 14-15 season was the most fun I've had in a Flames season since 03-04...but probably ends up being the season that set this franchise back more than any other.

As much as I love Gio and Brodie. The Flames should’ve traded both of them sometime within that rebuild. That pairing helped make this team more competitive at the time when they weren’t ready to be.

Building a hockey team sometimes feels like loading up for a war. You gotta build up your arms and when it’s time to fight, you hope you’ve got more weapons than the other side.

Who knows what kind of team the Flames could be right now with the plethora of picks they would’ve had in that deep 2015 draft if they had sold high on Gio and Brodie. They could’ve had one of their greatest drafts of all time as they already had their eyes on Rasmus, Kylington and Mangiapane. Maybe another 2 or 3 blue chippers on top of?

[Paulie Walnuts]

You would have traded Gio and Brodie because they made the team too competitive?

[Hockey_Ninja]

Yeah. From 2011 to 2016 the Flames had acquired enough young talent to try to build around (Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Monahan, Bennett) then you also had Gio, Brodie and Backs coming into his own. obviously Bennett didn’t pan out and Monahan’s career was ruined by injuries, but I can’t fault the org for wanting to try to contend with those guys. The time to trade Gio was during the bubble season before the expansion draft