Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well this is where things get tricky. Have you ever seen what the socialist caucus in the NDP has put forward? It’s far left. And while we can all take the layups against the far right here because those policies are insane, these are really no less insane. Nationalize all the big banks, withdraw from NATO, etc. my point isn’t that the ANDP is campaigning on those things, but that there are extremists in both parties. It so happens that the extremists have taken over the UPC, but appointment’s like Tzeporah Berman are definitely a concern.

So, while they want to paint themselves as centrist for the votes, there’s an underlying core that’s definitely further left.

And of course, one more time for the people in the back…yeah that socialist caucus is federal. But ANDP and the federal NDP are linked. A memebershup to one is a membership to the other.

Without getting into whether socialist policies or your preferred neo-liberalism is more “insane” when it comes to the betterment of real people, I’m not sure why you have so much trouble playing this straight.

The NDP Socialist Caucus has zero involvement in the ANDP and no interest in influencing any ANDP policies. They are solely involved federally and in Ontario, that’s it. Add in the fact that ANDP policies and leadership are decided on and influenced solely by its members, all of which are Albertans just like you, and not by members or leadership federally or in other provinces, and it comes across like a like of education on your part and not a valid concern.

Izzle is right in you trying to “both sides” the issue. Saying the UCP has been taken over by extremists “but look at the NDP Socialist Caucus!” that has zero involvement or even interest in involvement with the ANDP is absurd. I feel like you’re better than that and know that isn’t a valid comparison.

[powderjunkie]

We've seen right wing lunacy lead to the abolition of Roe v Wade.

We've the seen the 'left wing lunacy' lead to...checks notes...a dental plan?


Definitely some very bad people on both sides.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Without getting into whether socialist policies or your preferred neo-liberalism is more “insane” when it comes to the betterment of real people, I’m not sure why you have so much trouble playing this straight.

The NDP Socialist Caucus has zero involvement in the ANDP and no interest in influencing any ANDP policies. They are solely involved federally and in Ontario, that’s it. Add in the fact that ANDP policies and leadership are decided on and influenced solely by its members, all of which are Albertans just like you, and not by members or leadership federally or in other provinces, and it comes across like a like of education on your part and not a valid concern.

Izzle is right in you trying to “both sides” the issue. Saying the UCP has been taken over by extremists “but look at the NDP Socialist Caucus!” that has zero involvement or even interest in involvement with the ANDP is absurd. I feel like you’re better than that and know that isn’t a valid comparison.

The NDP is a single party across Canada with provincial branches and those provincial branches only exist under the NDP federal constitution so long as the provincial branches are not in conflict with the federal NDP constitution and principles.

Notley has been asked numerous times in the past if she will consider dropping the NDP moniker because of sparring between herself/ANDP and the BC NDP and federal NDP but she has vowed to stay committed to the parent party.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The NDP is a single party across Canada with provincial branches and those provincial branches only exist under the NDP federal constitution so long as the provincial branches are not in conflict with the federal NDP constitution and principles.

Nope:

PROVINCIAL PARTIES
1. Each province of Canada shall have a fully autonomous provincial Party, provided its constitution and principles are not in conflict with those of the Federal Party.

2. In the event of dispute as to whether any particular organization is or is not a provincial Party in good standing, the Federal Council of the Party is empowered to rule on whether an organization shall continue to be a provincial Party, subject to appeal to Convention.

If you read the constitution and principles, “not in conflict” essentially requires provincial parties that want to use the name to avoid directly contradicting the spirit or overarching ethos of the NDP or the procedural elements laid out in its constitution.

Basically, you can’t move a provincial NDP party into a socially far right capitalist paradise that fights against workers having rights, and if you do, the punishment is that you can’t call yourself NDP.

Scary stuff!

[Nufy]

You bolded the wrong part of that statement

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I might be reading into things too much but if you look at the three statements you'll see that Toews and Savage said they will not be seeking re-election. Sawhney said she will not seek nomination and re-election in Calgary NE. Maybe it is a subtle use of words leaving an opening to move into a different riding?

And Sawhney is back as the NW candidate.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ary-north-west

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

And Sawhney is back as the NW candidate.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...ary-north-west

Are they pretty much just moving people around like a chess game or something? I thought the candidate would at least need to live in the riding they were running in, then Smith runs in Brooks for some reason, but lives in High River. I would have assumed that you had to live in an area to best represent it?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Nufy

You bolded the wrong part of that statement

Notley has contradicted the federal party on many occasions. Is there any evidence that has created a significant conflict or attempted influence from the Fed party?

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Notley has contradicted the federal party on many occasions. Is there any evidence that has created a significant conflict or attempted influence from the Fed party?

You're forgetting that it isn't evidence that drives the discussion but perception.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nufy

You bolded the wrong part of that statement

I bolded the part I was correcting and then the part that corrects it, which seemed pretty straightforward at the time.

Apologies for overestimating your abilities. I’ll include pictures next time

[Locke]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Notley has contradicted the federal party on many occasions. Is there any evidence that has created a significant conflict or attempted influence from the Fed party?

I think this is important.

Notley has, after a very long while. realized that her Federal Counterparts are....essentially lunatics.

The LEAP Manifesto is one of the most insane political documents of our time.

The NDP like to stick together, it took Notley a while before she realized that she had to cut some of those ties.

I'll say that it took her a lot longer than I'd have liked, but lets just accept the fact that she actually did it, call that a win and move along.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I bolded the part I was correcting and then the part that corrects it, which seemed pretty straightforward at the time.

Apologies for overestimating your abilities. I’ll include pictures next time

ELIAAWAICTTCB

explain like i'm an albertan with an irrational commitment to the colour blue.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

I don’t want to get into the unseemly fray here—people should do what they want and vote with their conscience.

As for me, I don’t mind sharing that I’ve finally done it: I’ve ordered an NDP lawn sign (I’m in Calgary Currie) and sent them a small donation. First time ever for both of those things. But for me it was a pretty easy choice.

[Flames0910]

If anyone listened to CBC's West of Centre podcast, they had Nenshi on the other day and he said that not only is the Trudeau - Notley - Singh alliance fictional (which is kind of obvious) but that in meetings, each would spend the first 20 minutes bashing their counterpart haha.

He also said that Singh and Notley had a falling out over Trans Mountain and don't really see eye to eye these days (which again, is pretty plain to see).

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcas...ertas-election

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I don’t want to get into the unseemly fray here—people should do what they want and vote with their conscience.

As for me, I don’t mind sharing that I’ve finally done it: I’ve ordered an NDP lawn sign (I’m in Calgary Currie) and sent them a small donation. First time ever for both of those things. But for me it was a pretty easy choice.

Me too! just yesterday.
Having just moved here in the fall, I'm curious how many neighbors are going to give me the stink eye. Well, this is one way to introduce myself, I guess.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Without getting into whether socialist policies or your preferred neo-liberalism is more “insane” when it comes to the betterment of real people, I’m not sure why you have so much trouble playing this straight.

The NDP Socialist Caucus has zero involvement in the ANDP and no interest in influencing any ANDP policies. They are solely involved federally and in Ontario, that’s it. Add in the fact that ANDP policies and leadership are decided on and influenced solely by its members, all of which are Albertans just like you, and not by members or leadership federally or in other provinces, and it comes across like a like of education on your part and not a valid concern.

Izzle is right in you trying to “both sides” the issue. Saying the UCP has been taken over by extremists “but look at the NDP Socialist Caucus!” that has zero involvement or even interest in involvement with the ANDP is absurd. I feel like you’re better than that and know that isn’t a valid comparison.

I’m just pointing out that they’re extremists in both parties. I think that’s the case with the ANDP as well. And we did get to see some of that ridiculousness last time around with the Tzeporah Berman appointment. I get why they’re adding blue to the logo and trying to push the idea that they’re in the middle. I also understand why NDP supporters here are pushing that narrative.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by SportsJunky

Me too! just yesterday.
Having just moved here in the fall, I'm curious how many neighbors are going to give me the stink eye. Well, this is one way to introduce myself, I guess.

I have a feeling we aren’t alone. We have a UCP MLA, but he won this seat by less than 200 votes last election.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Slava

I’m just pointing out that they’re extremists in both parties. I think that’s the case with the ANDP as well. And we did get to see some of that ridiculousness last time around with the Tzeporah Berman appointment. I get why they’re adding blue to the logo and trying to push the idea that they’re in the middle. I also understand why NDP supporters here are pushing that narrative.

The ridiculousness is people are butthurt about her appointment.

The co-chair of the Oil Sands Advisory Group was a former Shell President and CAPP CEO Dave Collyer. The NDP made sure that the committee was equally represented by people focused on Industry AND the Environment. Its a concept that makes perfect sense, to have all views (both opposing and supporting) be part of the decision making process. This is vastly different to most political committees which nominate only members who share their viewpoint.

You want to complain about the Berman appointment being extremist.. but really it was one of the most centrist things that the NDP could do, because they didn't give power to either extreme, they let the extreme's share the load so that the result is a compromise that suits both.

That's how a government should work, listening to ALL sides, not just the ones you agree with.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by belsarius

The ridiculousness is people are butthurt about her appointment.

The co-chair of the Oil Sands Advisory Group was a former Shell President and CAPP CEO Dave Collyer. The NDP made sure that the committee was equally represented by people focused on Industry AND the Environment. Its a concept that makes perfect sense, to have all views (both opposing and supporting) be part of the decision making process. This is vastly different to most political committees which nominate only members who share their viewpoint.

You want to complain about the Berman appointment being extremist.. but really it was one of the most centrist things that the NDP could do, because they didn't give power to either extreme, they let the extreme's share the load so that the result is a compromise that suits both.

That's how a government should work, listening to ALL sides, not just the ones you agree with.

What, like the covid panel made up of people who all agree with Smith? Ya, that's gonna be money well spent. Last thing Preston Manning needs is more public tax dollars in his pockets.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Slava

I’m just pointing out that they’re extremists in both parties. I think that’s the case with the ANDP as well. And we did get to see some of that ridiculousness last time around with the Tzeporah Berman appointment. I get why they’re adding blue to the logo and trying to push the idea that they’re in the middle. I also understand why NDP supporters here are pushing that narrative.

I guess I don’t agree that the idea of the NDP being in the political centre is a “narrative.” The smartest move the NDP made in the last decade was to move to the middle and crowd out the other options there, including the Liberals and the Alberta party (which had promise but never got off the ground). Yes, the FEDERAL NDP is further to the left; so are many other provincial NDP caucuses. But the evidence simply does not support the idea that Notley is an extremist, or that the ALBERTA NDP is anything other than a centrist party right now. And that fact has guided my political choices too: I’m not ready to vote NDP federally but the choice to vote for the Alberta NDP is very easy right now.

The way I see it, we have two choices in Alberta: a far right wing party that includes and panders to the political fringe, and a center-left party with a history of being further to the left than they are currently, and a brand affiliation with other parties (like the Federal NDP) that are more extreme. But that’s not a reason not to vote for them. It would make as much sense to say that you won’t support the Federal Liberal party because you don’t care for the ideas of the BC Liberals.

And we can bemoan our choices all we want, but it is kind of similar to what Americans faced in 2020.

There’s an apt analogy: voters are all forced to eat at the same restaurant. The restaurant only serves two dishes, and you have to order one (if you don’t, someone else orders for you).

The choices are a salami sandwich and a steaming plateful of dog turd.

Half of voters will look at those choices and go “well, I don’t really like salami…..”. Some of them might even have had salami sandwiches they didn’t like in the past. You might even be a vegetarian. Maybe in the past you’ve ordered the other choice, and it wasn’t a turd before. So you kind of hope that maybe the restaurant isn’t REALLY serious about serving you an actual turd—but in your heart of hearts you know that this is deadly serious, because there was a turd on the sampler platter.

At the end of the day, this isn’t a hard choice. You don’t have to like salami. Lots of people don’t. But today you have to order the salami, because, well… the other choice is a literal turd.

And don’t forget: the only way to get the restaurant to stop serving turds to its customers is to make it 100% clear that no matter how they are dressed up, and no matter what party logo is on the plate, we will not eat them.

That’s how I think of this election. And I’m ordering the salami. I don’t even REALLY like salami that much, but the choice is still really easy.