Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

The problem is you're thinking about the election like an informed voter, which does not describe the vast majority of voters in this province. Most of them go as far as "Blue good, orange bad" and that's it

Definitely. And I know what I'm bitching about isn't groundbreaking or new to anyone. Just very frustrating

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Dion

I got nothing, nadda, zilch. Eff off Smith!

Are you under 65? Unless you make more than $180,000 or are under 65, you are getting it (or are eligible).

From Alberta.ca: The inflation relief act is now in force to make life more affordable. Your monthly Seniors Benefit payments will go up starting January 25 and you will automatically get an additional $100/month for 6 months starting January 31. Learn more

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Like, I get it when people say that there isn't a party that supports their views. I guess I'm kinda in the same boat, a party that believes in small government, leans left on the same issues I do, and leans right on the same issues I do, doesn't exist

What I don't get is when those same people then have a hard time adjusting their vote to the party that's the closest overall. Especially because this time around, there really aren't any third options. The Alberta Party is back to the pre-Greg Clark days where it's completely irrelevant. The Alberta Liberal party is in the same boat right now, hell, both parties have such little interest in them that both of their leaders are in charge just because they're the only ones that even ran.

So why do some people have such a hard time actually sitting down, thinking about what their values are, and just finding the party that actually aligns closest with them? Use a political compass tool if that helps. But to sit here and think "Well, I acknowledge the UCP is the worst choice we've ever seen. But how could I possibly vote for the NDP?" is just asinine.

Unless you're the type of person that thinks healthcare should be private and the role of education is solely to create cheap obedient workers, why would anyone vote UCP? And that's ignoring the mountain of social issues.

Sorry for the rant about nothing, but thinking about the amount of people that vote against their own self interest is just insane to me.

The best I can come up with is it's because they strongly identify with their party (or strongly against the opponent). So strongly that they can't even see it themselves.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by D as in David

The best I can come up with is it's because they strongly identify with their party (or strongly against the opponent). So strongly that they can't even see it themselves.

And they spend so much time trying to appear like they look at all sides that they have themselves fooled that they're actually being objective, yet never even touch on any actual policy

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Slava

I do think that there are a huge chunk of Albertans in this sort of a position though. The NDP is going to spend us into oblivion, and the UCP is incompetent and completely doesn't align with almost any of my views. Super great options there.

...and will also spend us into oblivion, the difference being as we've seen, that the money will go to the wealthy people/companies in the province.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

This is why it's such an uphill battle for the NDP. Conservative voters in this province don't judge a party on what they actually do, they judge them based on perception. NDP = Liberals = Tax & Spend. UCP = Conservatives = Fiscally Prudent. The reality of the UCP wasting billions more dollars than the NDP ever did has no impact, because facts don't matter in politics anymore

Yes, this exactly. Should be stickied every page of this thread as the discussion moves along. Because this is our province of voters, this is them in a damned nutshell.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by chedder

Are you under 65? Unless you make more than $180,000 or are under 65, you are getting it (or are eligible).

From Alberta.ca: The inflation relief act is now in force to make life more affordable. Your monthly Seniors Benefit payments will go up starting January 25 and you will automatically get an additional $100/month for 6 months starting January 31. Learn more

You forgot the needing kids under 18 part.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by chedder

Are you under 65? Unless you make more than $180,000 or are under 65, you are getting it (or are eligible).

From Alberta.ca: The inflation relief act is now in force to make life more affordable. Your monthly Seniors Benefit payments will go up starting January 25 and you will automatically get an additional $100/month for 6 months starting January 31. Learn more

The idiocy of this criteria can't be repeated enough. Yet we have to relitigate broad stroke generalizations about NDP fiscal policy because...orange?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Like, I get it when people say that there isn't a party that supports their views. I guess I'm kinda in the same boat, a party that believes in small government, leans left on the same issues I do, and leans right on the same issues I do, doesn't exist

What I don't get is when those same people then have a hard time adjusting their vote to the party that's the closest overall. Especially because this time around, there really aren't any third options. The Alberta Party is back to the pre-Greg Clark days where it's completely irrelevant. The Alberta Liberal party is in the same boat right now, hell, both parties have such little interest in them that both of their leaders are in charge just because they're the only ones that even ran.

So why do some people have such a hard time actually sitting down, thinking about what their values are, and just finding the party that actually aligns closest with them? Use a political compass tool if that helps. But to sit here and think "Well, I acknowledge the UCP is the worst choice we've ever seen. But how could I possibly vote for the NDP?" is just asinine.

Unless you're the type of person that thinks healthcare should be private and the role of education is solely to create cheap obedient workers, why would anyone vote UCP? And that's ignoring the mountain of social issues.

Sorry for the rant about nothing, but thinking about the amount of people that vote against their own self interest is just insane to me.

I see what you’re saying, but you know what’s even more insane? Most Albertans are probably socially liberal and fiscally conservative. How no party in the middle can get organized and competent to occupy that obvious hole is just beyond me.

[lucky1]

Originally Posted by Slava

I see what you’re saying, but you know what’s even more insane? Most Albertans are probably socially liberal and fiscally conservative. How no party in the middle can get organized and competent to occupy that obvious hole is just beyond me.

Bingo!

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Slava

I see what you’re saying, but you know what’s even more insane? Most Albertans are probably socially liberal and fiscally conservative. How no party in the middle can get organized and competent to occupy that obvious hole is just beyond me.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant with my first paragraph. You'd think that option would be incredibly popular. But instead the closest thing we get is the ndp. So I'll gladly vote for them, but it's still not quite what I want. Just the closest

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

I see what you’re saying, but you know what’s even more insane? Most Albertans are probably socially liberal and fiscally conservative. How no party in the middle can get organized and competent to occupy that obvious hole is just beyond me.

Albertans believe they are fiscally conservative because taxes are lower than the rest of Canada due to Oil and Gas revenues and higher wages.

Albertans have no desire for less service then the rest of Canada.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Yeah that's exactly what I meant with my first paragraph. You'd think that option would be incredibly popular. But instead the closest thing we get is the ndp. So I'll gladly vote for them, but it's still not quite what I want. Just the closest

I had to laugh at lucky1 thanking Slava’s post about being “socially liberal and fiscally conservative” after saying they refuse to vote ANDP, the only party within an even vague striking distance of that fantasy.

I agree in general that it’s confusing why people seem to struggle so hard with choosing the closest party to their values. ANDP, despite claims to the contrary, aren’t much of a “hard left socialist” option, which is an option I would like, but I’ll still happily vote for them because they’re closer to that than the UCP and I’m not immature enough to pout about my individual desires not being met to a T. I don’t know, maybe other people who fall in that neo-liberal area were spoiled at one point and that’s why they feel like lost centrists? Voting has always been about choosing the closest option for me. Seems… totally normal and expected?

Originally Posted by GGG

Albertans believe they are fiscally conservative because taxes are lower than the rest of Canada due to Oil and Gas revenues and higher wages.

Albertans have no desire for less service then the rest of Canada.

This and Hemi-Cuda’s post pretty accurately nail Albertans in general.

- Desire services they don’t want to pay for
- Identify as fiscally conservative because they’re enabled by O&G
- When comparing a party that spends $100M on social welfare vs. a party that spends $100M on corporate welfare, they will overwhelmingly view the latter as smart fiscal conservatism and the former as socialist money burning (and the higher O&G price is, the smarter they view the latter).

If the majority of Albertans voted based on their values, the ANDP would easily win. At this point the ANDP is closer to the formers PCs in terms of fiscal and social policy than the UCP are.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You forgot the needing kids under 18 part.

Not if over 65. I, maybe incorrectly, thought poster was 65 plus.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I had to laugh at lucky1 thanking Slava’s post about being “socially liberal and fiscally conservative” after saying they refuse to vote ANDP, the only party within an even vague striking distance of that fantasy.

I agree in general that it’s confusing why people seem to struggle so hard with choosing the closest party to their values. ANDP, despite claims to the contrary, aren’t much of a “hard left socialist” option, which is an option I would like, but I’ll still happily vote for them because they’re closer to that than the UCP and I’m not immature enough to pout about my individual desires not being met to a T. I don’t know, maybe other people who fall in that neo-liberal area were spoiled at one point and that’s why they feel like lost centrists? Voting has always been about choosing the closest option for me. Seems… totally normal and expected?

Yeah I don't know where that disconnect comes from. Like, even though I'd say I identify as a conservative overall, I have absolutely no issue with voting NDP right now, because objectively they're the party that is the closest to what I believe in at this time. So the people that act like they have to 'plug their nose' and vote NDP like it's some sort of hardship for them.... I don't understand that. And even worse, the people pretending like the UCP is the only option for someone that leans right are just being insanely stupid and narrow minded.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If the majority of Albertans voted based on their values, the ANDP would easily win. At this point the ANDP is closer to the formers PCs in terms of fiscal and social policy than the UCP are.

And that's just it, right there. People please, as a right leaning redneck, if I can figure this #### out why can't you? Look at the actual policies and actions of the NDP vs UCP and tell me with a straight face that you believe the UCP is the better option. If you say the UCP are the better option, you're either a rich oil and gas executive, or you're stupid and trolling.

LOOK AT THE ACTUAL POLICIES and you'll find out the NDP are quite centrist, not this socialist green party that people seem to think it is

[FurnaceFace]

I still don’t know why the ANDP didn’t take the last few years to rebrand. I feel like half their issue is Albertans have a hard time getting over the hump of voting NDP or voting Orange. Pick some sort of non confrontational, non federally associated, forest green colour, call it the Alberta Progressive Party or similar. That would kill some of the “I can’t vote for the socialists” vibe.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by btimbit

And that's just it, right there. People please, as a right leaning redneck, if I can figure this #### out why can't you?

Because a person has to WANT to. And it's work/effort. It's information that you have to seek out and sift through and think about. Most folks aren't interested in that.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Yeah I don't know where that disconnect comes from. Like, even though I'd say I identify as a conservative overall, I have absolutely no issue with voting NDP right now, because objectively they're the party that is the closest to what I believe in at this time. So the people that act like they have to 'plug their nose' and vote NDP like it's some sort of hardship for them.... I don't understand that. And even worse, the people pretending like the UCP is the only option for someone that leans right are just being insanely stupid and narrow minded.




And that's just it, right there. People please, as a right leaning redneck, if I can figure this #### out why can't you? Look at the actual policies and actions of the NDP vs UCP and tell me with a straight face that you believe the UCP is the better option. If you say the UCP are the better option, you're either a rich oil and gas executive, or you're stupid and trolling.

LOOK AT THE ACTUAL POLICIES and you'll find out the NDP are quite centrist, not this socialist green party that people seem to think it is

Well this is where things get tricky. Have you ever seen what the socialist caucus in the NDP has put forward? It’s far left. And while we can all take the layups against the far right here because those policies are insane, these are really no less insane. Nationalize all the big banks, withdraw from NATO, etc. my point isn’t that the ANDP is campaigning on those things, but that there are extremists in both parties. It so happens that the extremists have taken over the UPC, but appointment’s like Tzeporah Berman are definitely a concern.

So, while they want to paint themselves as centrist for the votes, there’s an underlying core that’s definitely further left.

And of course, one more time for the people in the back…yeah that socialist caucus is federal. But ANDP and the federal NDP are linked. A memebershup to one is a membership to the other.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well this is where things get tricky. Have you ever seen what the socialist caucus in the NDP has put forward? It’s far left. And while we can all take the layups against the far right here because those policies are insane, these are really no less insane. Nationalize all the big banks, withdraw from NATO, etc. my point isn’t that the ANDP is campaigning on those things, but that there are extremists in both parties. It so happens that the extremists have taken over the UPC, but appointment’s like Tzeporah Berman are definitely a concern.

So, while they want to paint themselves as centrist for the votes, there’s an underlying core that’s definitely further left.

And of course, one more time for the people in the back…yeah that socialist caucus is federal. But ANDP and the federal NDP are linked. A memebershup to one is a membership to the other.

Well fortunately for the Alberta provincial election voter, the Alberta provincial government will never be able to nationalize all banks or take Canada out of NATO.

They will be able to destroy our health care, give away billions to companies already making billions, waste money on a provincial police force nobody wants, etc, etc.

So the extremests in one party can and will do all their stupid #### and the other can’t and actually is only a distant relative of the party that actually has the extreme policies you’re worried about. So not really very tricky after all.

[Izzle]

It's simply yet another attempt to both sides the provincial left and right.