Sutter is the problem

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Possible.

The standings took the keys away in my mind though. Not in enough to add, not out enough to sell.

Yet other teams in similar situations did sell. If it was indecision, just another reason to send Treliving packing.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I haven't heard anything about Lindholm, there was the rumor last offseason that somebody else asked for a trade after Gaudreau and Tkachuk left the team but that Treliving wouldn't make a deal, and there were rumors that it was one of the Swedish Players.

It's quite possible that Lindholm was the one really unhappy with how it all played out.

Puts Darryl's dig at Huberdeau early on about it being important that 'Lindy likes who he's playing with' in an interesting light.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I'm sure getting sick of this team giving up on and pushing coaches out. The last couple "players" coaches are absolutely no exception to this either.

It does feel like things have got a little toxic in the locker room. Hard to imagine that this is something that's repairable if the rumours are pretty accurate. Bruce Cassidy is an excellent head coach but the players in the Bruins locker room were fed up with his approach and pushed him out. Given the Bruins success this season it's hard to argue that giving the players what they wanted didn't work.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You are aware there has been substantial turnover in players since Sutter or any other coach has been here? This argument of “this team gives up on coaches” is bogus because it isn’t the same team year-to-year. The personnel is different and the leadership varies. You can’t lump them all into a single collective.

Yep I'm aware of this. I'm just saying it's annoying that this team has pushed out every coach. You disagree? Can you tell me you are enjoying this good year, bad year, new coach pattern?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

Good lord!!!
please lets not talk about Woodcroft any more.
he's oblivious, barely relevant.
He rides coat tails, he thinks he's the savior and talks like everyone is beneath him

the most annoying type of fool

It's funny that this is the feeling about Woodcroft with McDavid and Draisaitl but not Sutter with Tkachuk and Gaudreau. Honestly that exact statement about "he think's he's the saviour and talks like everyone is beneath him" could easily be made about Sutter, hell might be more true. Woodcroft at least acknowledges how important McDavid and Draisaitl are...Sutter never seems to do the same about his players.

Woodcroft is getting more of the roster beyond McDavid and Draisaitl this year at 5v5 than Sutter got out of the roster beyond Gaudreau and Tkachuk last year at 5v5. And he beat Sutter in a playoff round last year too.

Oilers 22-23:
w/McDavid & Draisaitl: 56.4% GF (31-24)
w/ 1 of McDavid or Draisaitl: 48.6% (68-72)
w/o McDavid or Draisaitl: 54.0% (67-57 - compare this to last year where they were 42% 55 GF - 80 GA when those two weren't on the ice)

Flames 21-22:
w/ Gaudreau & Tkachuk: 72.9% GF (86 - 32)
w/ 1 of Gaudreau or Tkachuk: 62% GF (16-10)
w/o Gaudreau or Tkachuk: 49.2% GF (94-97)

If the Oilers success is all because of McDavid and Draisaitl, then the Flames success was all because of Gaudreau and Tkachuk. And based on the splits from last year, and how things went this year, that seems to be pretty fair. And it appears the coach might have had a hand in why those two aren't here this year too.

I don't like the guy and think he is a smarmy a-hole, but he's actually don't a pretty good job in Edmonton and IMO outcoached Sutter since he's been coach of the Oilers.

[Toonage]

Might be better to say that recently this franchise has a history of pushing out coaches.

This team, as its currently constructed, does not.

Well, until now maybe

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Yep I'm aware of this. I'm just saying it's annoying that this team has pushed out every coach. You disagree? Can you tell me you are enjoying this good year, bad year, new coach pattern?

I really don’t care who coaches so long as they use the talent they have at their disposal to the best of their ability. Trying to use your thorobreds to ploughing fields is a poor use of available resources. Give me a coach who is adaptable to the players and they will win more often than not. Keep trying to hammer those square pegs into those round holes just leads to poor results and damaged pegs. If they have to cycle through coaches every two years to find success, so be it. When was the last time you paid money to see a coach behind the bench?

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Buff

No guarantees that he's the next Jon Cooper or will even be a decent NHL coach, but you just now that if Edwards will let the organization move on from Sutter that they won't get a big name coach so I'm more than willing to let Love be the next coach.

I'm sure the kids will love him, the only worries I have is will the "vets" respect him enough to listen to him, or they'll just do whatever they feel like doing and ignore him because he doesn't have any NHL experience.

[Ferarri]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I'm sure the kids will love him, the only worries I have is will the "vets" respect him enough to listen to him, or they'll just do whatever they feel like doing and ignore him because he doesn't have any NHL experience.

This group is going to be hard to coach no matter who is the bench boss. If you have players threatening to leave since they don't like the coach then that should be a strong indicator of the character in the room.

By all means voice your displeasure to the GM in private but to come out publicly with the season on the line is a rather telling statement.

They could be in a for a surprise though since I don't see a lot of GM's wanting to trade for Kadri or Huberdeau's contract. Why would they? Both have been terrible and I'm pretty sure teams want to stay away from these type of vocal individuals who don't produce and then "demand" the team fire the coach. It's a bad look whether you like or dislike Sutter.

[SilverKast]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I really don’t care who coaches so long as they use the talent they have at their disposal to the best of their ability. Trying to use your thorobreds to ploughing fields is a poor use of available resources. Give me a coach who is adaptable to the players and they will win more often than not. Keep trying to hammer those square pegs into those round holes just leads to poor results and damaged pegs. If they have to cycle through coaches every two years to find success, so be it. When was the last time you paid money to see a coach behind the bench?

I'm in agreement with this 100%. I may like certain coaching styles and systems better than others, but that doesn't mean they can work with anyone. Play to your strengths and find a system that works for your players. Or get players that fit the system, but at least be consistent with it.

This edition is definitely one of the most frustrating to watch as a fan. The worst part is that it all seemed to implode after the playoff loss to the nogoods up north. Wonder how all of it would have played out had we beaten them.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by SilverKast

I'm in agreement with this 100%. I may like certain coaching styles and systems better than others, but that doesn't mean they can work with anyone. Play to your strengths and find a system that works for your players. Or get players that fit the system, but at least be consistent with it.

This edition is definitely one of the most frustrating to watch as a fan. The worst part is that it all seemed to implode after the playoff loss to the nogoods up north. Wonder how all of it would have played out had we beaten them.

The implosion started with goaltending and continued for most of this year.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It does feel like things have got a little toxic in the locker room. Hard to imagine that this is something that's repairable if the rumours are pretty accurate. Bruce Cassidy is an excellent head coach but the players in the Bruins locker room were fed up with his approach and pushed him out. Given the Bruins success this season it's hard to argue that giving the players what they wanted didn't work.

I have no problem letting players fire their coach if that group happens to have an established championship core that's been together for over a decade. Giving that kind of power to a group that hasn't done anything and whos dissenting voice seems to be driven mostly by two high priced and under performing new comers is tough to take.

[GFG#1]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

He pretty much said this.

He told the guys look at the standing and put yourself in my shoes what would you do?

Also said we have no expiring players to trade and the ones we do are worthless(my words not his for worthless).

He mishandled assets last year, honestly the playoffs are a longshot, he should have sold at least 1 player. Look at Nashville, they sold and are not going away, they have a better shot of getting in then we do.

Trading one key piece could have been a wakeup call for these guys. Toffoli probably could have gotten a king's ransom a week before the deadline. The problem is he waited on the fence to see if he would have a better idea of their chances. By the time the deadline came around most of the teams had already finished with their moves, and the trades likely were not worth it.

He could have traded Tanev or Hanifin, he is going to have to dump someone this summer to get a full roster cap compliant if the cap only goes up by 1 million.

Asset management is a big part of the GM's job, and Treliving has not been good at that part at all.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Mangiapane has been one of the team's best players all season. Don't confuse a poor shooting percentage with a lost cause.

the guy is the 33rd ranked forward in the league this season in xGF%

Totally agree. I think the guy is just snake-bitten this year in terms of missing the net by inches or getting the posts/crossbars or goalies making extremely good saves. The whole team have been snake-bitten this year. If it wasn't for the bad luck on the shots, I think the Flames would've been on the positive overall as a team and production from Mangy, Toffoli, Backlund, Kadri, Lindholm, Huberdeau, etc would be a lot higher. Puck luck was so bad for most of this season for the Flames. Better this year than any other years.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Yet other teams in similar situations did sell. If it was indecision, just another reason to send Treliving packing.

Have always felt it silly to judge a lack of action without knowing the action that was possible.

They had a line for their assets (he said as much), it wasn't met.

Until you know what that line was, and what was offered you're just bloviating.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Have always felt it silly to judge a lack of action without knowing the action that was possible.

They had a line for their assets (he said as much), it wasn't met.

Until you know what that line was, and what was offered you're just bloviating.

Nawww, the tired empty defense of Treliving and Sutter is bloviating, and at its finest. First excuse: The team was too close to the playoffs to sell. Well, Nashville and Washington sold, so what was Calgary's excuse? Second excuse: You don't know what was offered so you can speak to that. Problem is we've heard they didn't really start taking offers until a couple hours before the deadline. Third excuse to come: Let me show you some advanced stats that tell you what a great job management has done and what a great position the organization is in... ? Empty excuses. Every single one of them. That's bloviation my friend.

[Tbull8]

I think Mitch Love is the perfect choice. The young players trust him, just look at the results that the Wranglers have had so far (last year and this year). If we dont give him a shot, then some other club for sure will

[Major Major]

If you repetitively use the word bloviation, you might be a bloviator.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Shame you never hear bloviate dropped in real life exchanges. Its a great word, and very applicable these days.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's funny that this is the feeling about Woodcroft with McDavid and Draisaitl but not Sutter with Tkachuk and Gaudreau. Honestly that exact statement about "he think's he's the saviour and talks like everyone is beneath him" could easily be made about Sutter, hell might be more true. Woodcroft at least acknowledges how important McDavid and Draisaitl are...Sutter never seems to do the same about his players.

Woodcroft is getting more of the roster beyond McDavid and Draisaitl this year at 5v5 than Sutter got out of the roster beyond Gaudreau and Tkachuk last year at 5v5. And he beat Sutter in a playoff round last year too.

Oilers 22-23:
w/McDavid & Draisaitl: 56.4% GF (31-24)
w/ 1 of McDavid or Draisaitl: 48.6% (68-72)
w/o McDavid or Draisaitl: 54.0% (67-57 - compare this to last year where they were 42% 55 GF - 80 GA when those two weren't on the ice)

Flames 21-22:
w/ Gaudreau & Tkachuk: 72.9% GF (86 - 32)
w/ 1 of Gaudreau or Tkachuk: 62% GF (16-10)
w/o Gaudreau or Tkachuk: 49.2% GF (94-97)

If the Oilers success is all because of McDavid and Draisaitl, then the Flames success was all because of Gaudreau and Tkachuk. And based on the splits from last year, and how things went this year, that seems to be pretty fair. And it appears the coach might have had a hand in why those two aren't here this year too.

I don't like the guy and think he is a smarmy a-hole, but he's actually don't a pretty good job in Edmonton and IMO outcoached Sutter since he's been coach of the Oilers.

I wasn’t making any comparisons
I was saying woodcroft is not the reason Edmonton has improved
But
He acts like he is

And
Yes, I’ve said before that I’m sick of players tuning out the coach every 18 months
I just am

All that said, if all the speculation is true, and Edwards did hire Sutter, and MANY players don’t like it
Then
You have to tend to believe the following

Sutter is here for a while
Treliving is gone
MANY players quit next year in one form or another
And
This will be the most interesting off season in our history


Yes
I’m sick of players not trying because they aren’t having fun
I suppose I’m old and expect effort when you accept an offer of employment
And as mentioned before, it’s probably a reality in today’s professional sports
I suspect a result of “participation ribbon” approach to some degree
Right or wrong
If this keep up
In 50 years the Stanley cup will be 76 feet tall because everyone will get one every year