Sutter is the problem

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

PW seems like most of the time he engages just to cause a reaction.

Tempted to put him on "ignore" as then most of the thread would go away. Getting tired of the schtick personally.

A pretty sensitive fellow it seems

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I can't give him that leeway after him commenting that he'd seen winning hockey because it smacked him in the face (paraphrasing) last spring and saying he knew Darryl was the one to teach him. The team mentality works. You're not going to find a lot of championship teams that don't make this an absolute.

When Lou took the air the other night and said that Huberdeau still isn't over the trade, still isn't really adapted to even being here, it put things in perspective for me. Tough to work with that as a coach.

Lou is just another talking head that believes he is building some type of "brand". He might have some inside info but limited at best? He is of course entitled to an opinion, number 10 is French so maybe a bit stubborn and maybe a bit emotional...I always go back to the same observation. They were playing lights out the first 7 then "something" happened and they have struggled since.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Yikes

Lou is just another talking head that believes he is building some type of "brand". He might have some inside info but limited at best? He is of course entitled to an opinion, number 10 is French so maybe a bit stubborn and maybe a bit emotional...I always go back to the same observation. They were playing lights out the first 7 then "something" happened and they have struggled since.

Who is "they"? Huberdeau was not. Kadri was, but the top line hadn't clicked yet. It was exciting because we all thought, imagine this team with a good first line, thinking it would happen. It did not.

Huberdeau has had a nice game here and there but has never been "lights out" with the flames. Yet...

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

If you are not good enough to adapt to any system of play and thrive, than you are not worth 10.5 million.

What about Crosby? 2015 season under Mike Johnston he played at a 55 point pace (just a hair shy of Huberdeau's current production).


The difference: Pittsburgh fired Johnston in December, Crosby scored at a 105 point pace under Sullivan and they won back to back cups.


If Sidney Crosby can be stifled by his own coach, anyone can.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

It does seem that way agreed, but thats because of whats he put out there this season.

There are plenty of good things he can do, but I think he is outdated in his approach especially when you look at the league.

Its best he leave the organization after this season before things become even more toxic like his last go around.

And where does the organization go from here? Geoff Ward, Bill Peters, Gulutzan were all colossal failures, and it is likely the next coach is just as bad with the track record of coaches this Franchise pursues.

If things were so toxic that the coach is simply outdated and despised as you suggest, the team wouldn't be playing the system to a T and showing up to play every night, they would be mailing in games left, right and center.

This is a team that can't score and couldn't get a save all year (until recently). Call it what it is. That's on everyone from the GM and Coach to the players themselves who are all paid handsomely to produce. Let's not pretend that the same staff that produced the year it did last year is somehow completely inept. Quite honestly, this team should be a whole lot worse in many ways than it is given the goaltending and PP this year, so much of even being afloat is due to the staff not letting this group quit.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Who is "they"? Huberdeau was not. Kadri was, but the top line hadn't clicked yet. It was exciting because we all thought, imagine this team with a good first line, thinking it would happen. It did not.

Huberdeau has had a nice game here and there but has never been "lights out" with the flames. Yet...

"They" = Flames. First 7 games I thought they might lose 20 to 25 on the season. Anyways....I am not in the Sutter camp at all and never have been. Was happy to see him go and not surprised to see him back, as mentioned the Flames are the only team dumb enough or desperate enough to hire him. He is an antique, polarizing dude with a shelf life.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

What about Crosby? 2015 season under Mike Johnston he played at a 55 point pace (just a hair shy of Huberdeau's current production).


The difference: Pittsburgh fired Johnston in December, Crosby scored at a 105 point pace under Sullivan and they won back to back cups.


If Sidney Crosby can be stifled by his own coach, anyone can.

Although I see your point. its pretty tough to compare Johnston to Sutter

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Who is "they"? Huberdeau was not. Kadri was, but the top line hadn't clicked yet. It was exciting because we all thought, imagine this team with a good first line, thinking it would happen. It did not.

Huberdeau has had a nice game here and there but has never been "lights out" with the flames. Yet...

He was PPG in his first 4 but only 1 in the next 3 so not sure about the 7 games figure. Lindy was really struggling off the hop though. 3 points in 7.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

What about Crosby? 2015 season under Mike Johnston he played at a 55 point pace (just a hair shy of Huberdeau's current production).


The difference: Pittsburgh fired Johnston in December, Crosby scored at a 105 point pace under Sullivan and they won back to back cups.


If Sidney Crosby can be stifled by his own coach, anyone can.

IIRC Crosby lobbied for the change. He may have been holding back a little.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I think that a lot of what Sutter does has to do with tension and release. Build tension, make people uncomfortable, have them climb the mountain, then make things easier on the other side. Can you lift the 100 lb weight? Great, now lift the 50 lb weight... Feels like you can throw it.

He actively tries to break players to a team first mentality and to completely get rid of the what about me attitude. We saw it with Johnny and him awkwardly trying to dump the puck in at the blue line with no pressure, etc.

I think what has people really frustrated is he concentrates most of this to his star players and young players. It makes total sense in my mind since you need the star players to lead and be dominant, you need the young players to max out their potential. Your role players though? You just need them to fill a specific role. They have no potential and they're not going to be dominant, and yet you still need them. So they seem to be operating with different expectations because they are.

This breaks down in a big way though when the star player doesn't climb the mountain. Call that a failure on the coach if you want... I don't. But Huberdeau's what about me attitude is still there. Sutter's given him the lighter weight regardless and we'll see where it goes.

This may seem like an anti-Huberdeau post, but it's not. I like the guy and think he's dealing with a ton of pressure and noise right now and needs to remember he's Johnny freaking Huberdeau. He needs to get over whatever's bothering him, be it the coach, being a flame, his agent. He's the only one that can get himself out of this.

At the end of the day, if the team finds no success, then Sutter has to account for that and I hope that there is a process where that actually happens, but I don't think that leads to him being fired nor do I think they should.

This kind of confirms what I thought. I didn't want to use the words push buttons but your explaintion fits much better. He wants JH to get frustrated take charge and be a leader. He is putting him out of his comfort zone for a reason, and although JH could be generating points on the other wing, it was important enough to Sutter that Huber becomes a team first guy. Look at Markstrom, he struggled but Sutter never abandoned him; Now there is loyalty and respect there, and now you have a goalie thats even more motivated than last season, because he understands now that Sutter always had his back. Sutter is not only raising the bar but trying to push the players to fight a little harder.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Yikes

Lou is just another talking head that believes he is building some type of "brand". He might have some inside info but limited at best? He is of course entitled to an opinion, number 10 is French so maybe a bit stubborn and maybe a bit emotional...I always go back to the same observation. They were playing lights out the first 7 then "something" happened and they have struggled since.

Its okay to use cultural stereotypes?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IIRC Crosby lobbied for the change. He may have been holding back a little.

Johnston had also coached an entire year prior where Crosby produced at nearly the same pace he produced in Sullivan’s first two full years as coach.

Suggesting Crosby was “stifled” by his coach is a bit much.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Buff

Its okay to use cultural stereotypes?

Maybe, maybe not. I have a ton of experience with French employees so I guess I am adding that in. I also have a ton of mid-management hiring/firing experience...with that in mind, FOR SURE I would never hire a guy like Sutter for any position, #### disturber type...I would consider this a bad hire by anyone.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Both bolted the first chance they got from the magnificent coaching of Darryl Sutter.

Both bolted the first chance they got from the city of Calgary. I don't think Darryl had much to do with it.

[SuperMatt18]

I think Sutter playing Huberdeau on the RH side had a very specific reason - it was just to try to get him to shoot more, and you tend to get better shooting opportunities on your offhand wing.

Overall though I think there are a lot of things that have held Huberdeau back:

-Confidence: I think the trade broke his confidence. He was a 115 point player that probably thought he was a Florida Panther for life, and they said "You're not worth the money and we are trading you for Tkachuk".

-Defense First Mentality: I still think he's really over committing on being responsible defensively and taking less risk offensively. In the offensive zone he still isn't taking risk, if the other two forwards are deep he plays super super high as a way to not risk getting caught deep.

-Chemistry / Linemates: The Lindholm experiment was ended too soon during a time where Lindholm didn't look like himself either. Kadri isn't a good enough passer. It's not a surprise he looked his best with Backlund who is better at playing those quick passes. I also think that he needs to play with more speed that drives the center of the ice, and hope we see him more with Dube.

-Effort: I do also think he needs to put in a more honest effort, he looks good when he moves his feet and skates. Struggles when he starts to glide.

Overall I expect him to have a much better season next year with more time to adjust and a bit less pressure on him coming off a down year. With Sutter as the coach or not.

[TheIronMaiden]

No small part of the Sutter hate is that the media does like him because he doesn't play catch with them.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

So not communicating during the summer

Okay.

and during the season is ok?

Not okay.


The amount of communication between Sutter and the new players before training camp is a nothing burger.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

"Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Certain individuals put way too much emphasis on past performance in order to rationalize the facts of today.

84-88/90


I'm sure you'll be able to get it.

[topfiverecords]

I don't have the stats handy but I'm curious who has more posts this season, Paulie Walnuts or the Flames?

[saillias]

Not sure what that means about building a brand. 40-50 point wingers don't get much of a brand. Sport Chek can't even sell your sticks unless you're in the top tier of players. And maybe best case scenario for those guys you get on a cereal box and a few billboards. Other than that you pretty much have to be the best player from your country or biggest personality to be a "brand."