[Rumour] NHL to expand to 34 teams? Houston and Atlanta

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Wouldn't regional fan bases (and who they cheer for) just naturally align as has proven in the past? I mean extra teams were added to the Eastern Conference after the original six (in various ways) and it seems most of them were successful.

Rangers -> Philadelphia, Long Island, Buffalo, New Jersey
Boston -> Hartford
Chicago -> Minnesota, St. Louis, Columbus
Montreal -> Quebec City
Detroit -> Maybe Pittsburgh? Toronto? Chicago?
Toronto -> Buffalo?

Even beyond the OG six (just to name a few):

California Golden Seals -> Los Angeles
Rangers, Philadelphia -> Washington, New Jersey
Kansas City -> St. Louis, Colorado, Chicago
Toronto, Montreal -> Ottawa
Los Angeles -> San Jose, Anaheim
Tampa Bay -> Florida
Vancouver -> Seattle
Phoenix -> Las Vegas

Even with possible expansion:

Dallas -> Houston
Florida -> Atlanta
Toronto -> Hamilton, Mississauga, Markham

I think my point is that fans will gravitate to the team they want to cheer for, as long as the product is good, the owners are competent, and the game experience is worth coming back for.

Yes and no. It’s not really as simple as you make it out to be.

Take New York (for example, as it’s been mentioned previously). Lots of teams in a small area, but those teams all operate in areas with a completely distinct culture where the people actually value those differences. It’s why the Rangers and the Devils work, or why Philly and Pittsburgh works, or why Calgary and Edmonton works. There are clear divisions where the drive might be all of 30 minutes between arenas but to the people there it’s a world apart.

You can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that exists in the GTA. Talking to friends in places like Hamilton, there’s no sense of “rivalry” with Toronto. They’re all Leafs fans and stoked to be Leafs fans even if they live an hour away. It’s like putting another Alberta team in Lethbridge… nobody really cares. They’re all Edmonton (or less so: Calgary) fans anyway and sure, they’d cheer for the most local team, but there’s no real advantage to going there.

You’ve also randomly listed a bunch of teams that are super far away from each other, so I might be missing your point. But Toronto/Hamilton is a poor comparison to almost every other two teams you mentioned there.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yes and no. It’s not really as simple as you make it out to be.

Take New York (for example, as it’s been mentioned previously). Lots of teams in a small area, but those teams all operate in areas with a completely distinct culture where the people actually value those differences. It’s why the Rangers and the Devils work, or why Philly and Pittsburgh works, or why Calgary and Edmonton works. There are clear divisions where the drive might be all of 30 minutes between arenas but to the people there it’s a world apart.

You can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that exists in the GTA. Talking to friends in places like Hamilton, there’s no sense of “rivalry” with Toronto. They’re all Leafs fans and stoked to be Leafs fans even if they live an hour away. It’s like putting another Alberta team in Lethbridge… nobody really cares. They’re all Edmonton (or less so: Calgary) fans anyway and sure, they’d cheer for the most local team, but there’s no real advantage to going there.

You’ve also randomly listed a bunch of teams that are super far away from each other, so I might be missing your point. But Toronto/Hamilton is a poor comparison to almost every other two teams you mentioned there.

I disagree, Tie Cat fans hate the Argos with a burning passion, the Forge hates TFC. Hamilton would drop the Leafs in a heart beat.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that exists in the GTA. Talking to friends in places like Hamilton, there’s no sense of “rivalry” with Toronto. They’re all Leafs fans and stoked to be Leafs fans even if they live an hour away. It’s like putting another Alberta team in Lethbridge… nobody really cares. They’re all Edmonton (or less so: Calgary) fans anyway and sure, they’d cheer for the most local team, but there’s no real advantage to going there.

You’ve also randomly listed a bunch of teams that are super far away from each other, so I might be missing your point. But Toronto/Hamilton is a poor comparison to almost every other two teams you mentioned there.

Actually, it isn't. Hamilton fans just haven't been presented with a serious NHL alternative to the Leafs. In fact you'd be finding a relative amount of Buffalo and Detroit fans in Hamilton too.

Even with the Rangers/New Jersey/Pittsburgh/Philly examples, if only one of those teams existed (e.g. the Rangers) then fans of NHL hockey would more than likely align with a regional team. The fact those cities (and you can include NYI and Washington in that equation now) are now parsed into micro-regional NHL team means fans have choice.

I suspect if, for example, the Devils never existed, those fans would be divided between the Rangers and Philadelphia. Having their own team created a new option for them.

I suspect the same alignment would happen with the GTA. I don't know about Markham having the gravitas to separate Leafs fans out of that base (although I think there's still a big market for that), but you would most certainly have that if the team was placed outside the GTA in a place like Hamilton but still in the Golden Horseshoe. There's as many people in Hamilton as Winnipeg (and growing fast), there are already different pro sports teams from TO (Ti-Cats, Forge, Honey Badgers, and even the Toronto Rock (which is oddly named as TO but probably for marketing purposes)).

Regional fans do align. It's the same why you see many Saskatchewan folks fans of Edmonton and Calgary, Inner BC with the Canucks, and Atlantic folks with Montreal or Toronto.

IronMaiden said it - Hamilton fans would drop the Leafs at a moment's notice.

[PepsiFree]

Interesting, I’ve never gotten that sense in the same way as when you’re in New York or California, but you’re located out there right?

[Ozy_Flame]

I am now, and while people I've met from Hamilton haven't really talked about NHL hockey, they are certainly fired up about their local sports stuff, distinct from Toronto. Particularly Forge and the Ti-Cats.

I think with Hamilton fans they feel overshadowed by big city up the lake. Give them an NHL team and they'd rabidly support it - just to piss off TO.

That said, I think you'd see the same thing if Saskatoon got an NHL team. Fans would flip to the local team overnight and ditch Edmonton and Calgary.

[PepsiFree]

Wherever the next franchises go, I think we can all agree that under no circumstances should Saskatoon or Regina get a franchise. It’s like a whole province of “What if Edmonton was worse?”

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Wherever the next franchises go, I think we can all agree that under no circumstances should Saskatoon or Regina get a franchise. It’s like a whole province of “What if Edmonton was worse?”

This isn't possible. Edmonton is a complete absence of goodness, so by definition, it can't get worse.

But I agree with the main point.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Actually, it isn't. Hamilton fans just haven't been presented with a serious NHL alternative to the Leafs. In fact you'd be finding a relative amount of Buffalo and Detroit fans in Hamilton too.


IronMaiden said it - Hamilton fans would drop the Leafs at a moment's notice.

I also agree. I lived in the area for quite a while, both Durham region and west of Toronto (Oakville), and I think Hamilton has it's own gravity for sure. It would be kind of like Ottawa where most people rooted for the Leafs or Habs before getting their own team, but were happy to adopt the Sens once they had a chance. I could see Hamilton going the same way.

Durham Region on the other hand, I think mostly falls with Toronto's gravity. Oshawa has a little gravity, but I don't think enough that they identify completely separate from Toronto like Hamilton. Mississauga is fully captured by Toronto's pull, but once you start getting into Burlington and Oakville, Hamilton starts to become more of a pull. And of course, St. Catherines and the Niagara Region are fully captured by Hamilton.

The real wildcard are places like Markkham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Brampton, and further out, London Kitchener. I could see Brampton drawing toward Hamilton for fandom, and maybe London-Kitchener as those cities considered themselves "western" Ontario, but the other areas I think would stay loyal to the Leafs.

Those are the fastest growing areas and would be the battle ground for fan. I could see the Leafs not wanting to lose out on that.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The real wildcard are places like Markkham, Richmond Hill, King, Brampton, and further out, London Kitchener. I could see Brampton drawing toward Hamilton for fandom, and maybe London-Kitchener as those cities considered themselves "western" Ontario, but the other areas I think would stay loyal to the Leafs.

Those are the fastest growing areas and would be the battle ground for fan. I could see the Leafs not wanting to lose out on that.

The way Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge is growing, I could see them having their own NHL team as well some day. That region is already as large as Winnipeg and growing fast.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The way Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge is growing, I could see them having their own NHL team as well some day. That region is already as large as Winnipeg and growing fast.

Google search says that region is 550k and Winnipeg is 750k.

[Ozy_Flame]

You're right. KWC is approaching 600k total. Winnipeg is 750k. Didn't realize Winnipeg grew too.

That said, KWC has more communities to draw on, including Guelph which is 150k.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Google search says that region is 550k and Winnipeg is 750k.

The Kitchener-Waterloo metro area includes Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, and a bunch of rural townships. It doesn't include Guelph, which would add about another 165,000 and easily falls within the same commuter shed.

[Strange Brew]

So is there some actual teeth to this story?

[Reggie Dunlop]

Here's a map of the 50 mile NHL territorial rights in the Southern Ontario area....



London would be free.

EDIT: Radius around London added.

[Ped]

I don't think fans in Hamilton would necessarily drop the Leafs. Look how many out west still cheer for the Leafs even though for many of them, it's been more than one generation since they have left Ontario.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Also, in the age of streaming and teams taking their productions in-house, local TV (or even regional) rights are no longer significant. Toronto and Buffalo are only two BOG votes.

[curves2000]

Some things are generational like sports teams. Sure existing fans old and young in Ontario cheer for the Leafs because it's in Ontario and that is your father's, uncles, grandfather's team and you may had a chance to attend a few games as a youngster.

If a new team came out in the Hamilton area and was supported by the populations in the surrounding areas, that generation and subsequent ones are now Hamilton or whatever fans.

Same thing happened in Alberta, older hockey fans who are now 45+ who used to cheer or who's family was most likely original 6 fan's are now spending boatloads of money to support Edmonton and Calgary. The majority of younger fans in AB cheer and financially support Edmonton and Calgary.

It usually just takes a little time for the switch to happen, it would just happen a lot quicker in Ontario given how many people hate the Leafs and how many people there is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ped

I don't think fans in Hamilton would necessarily drop the Leafs. Look how many out west still cheer for the Leafs even though for many of them, it's been more than one generation since they have left Ontario.

I know a few Leafs fans. They go to Flames games. Some with seasons tix or a portion thereof.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Also, in the age of streaming and teams taking their productions in-house, local TV (or even regional) rights are no longer significant. Toronto and Buffalo are only two BOG votes.

Didn't Toronto once try to block even the Canucks back in the day because they claimed all of Canada west of Ontario part of their exclusive area? I seem to recall hearing that somewhere before.

[blankall]

The Hamilton would be all over a new team. People from Toronto basically all talk about people from Hamilton like they are a bunch of uneducated working class hicks. People from Hamilton know this, and don't feel especially fond of anything Toronto. An NHL team would really go a long way towards giving Hamilton it's own identity, beyond just being a suburb of Toronto.