[Rumour] NHL to expand to 34 teams? Houston and Atlanta

[Snuffleupagus]

What idiot is going to pony up $650+m to try Atlanta again? Does Elon like hockey?

[Enoch Root]

Comparing populations of US centers to Canadian centers, in relation to hockey fans and ability to support hockey teams is laughable. There is also this little detail about the density of fans to population that needs to be considered.

Going by memory, but Canadian cities are estimated at about 60%. Some of the southern US cities are estimated at about 5%. I don't recall what the New York area is - it is certainly well above the 5% of southern US cities, but wouldn't be anywhere near the 60% in Canadian cities.

And saying Toronto can only support one, as the metro Toronto area is only 6M is also pretty funny. Alberta easily supports 2 with about 4.5M people, and WPG is doing okay with a population of $850K. Also, the 6M number doesn't include the population of the surrounding area, outside of the metro Toronto area. including from London to Kingston is closer to 10M. (Yes, I know doing the same for the NY area pushes that number up too, but I am comparing Cdn areas because that is a more relative comparison, due to fan density).

Suggesting the Toronto area could only support one team is being willfully obtuse, IMO. The 4 western provinces, with about 12M people spread over an area about the size of Europe, supports 4 teams. Southern Ontario, with a population almost the same, can easily support 2.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Where would the Edmonton of the Greater Toronto Area be?

That would be Brampton.

[Ozy_Flame]

Nah. Anything in Durham region (Oshawa, Ajax, Whitby, etc.)

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That would be Brampton.

You sure it's not Hamilton?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Please educate me. It's about 23 km each way?

Distance is somewhere around 50 miles iirc.

What matters though is that the drive is somewhere around 90 minutes IF traffic is moving smoothly.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

You sure it's not Hamilton?

Hamilton isn't in the GTA. It's in the Golden Horseshoe though.

[Jordan!]

The only way Quebec City gets a team is after Atlanta fails again in about 10-15 years. The Canadian apology tour

Originally Posted by flamesgod

I’d prefer they just move Arizona to Houston and tell Atlanta to go pound sand.

Not going to happen unless plan A, B or C fail this summer

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Cycling76er

They should be coming online right around the time we'd be getting a solid team together and have to give players away again. How about putting a ####ing team back in Quebec City? Dumbasses.

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Houston yes. Trying Atlanta for the third time would be a mistake. Give the other franchise to Quebec or another in Ontario .

Houston seems like a no brainer to me, I'm not sold on Atlanta.
Southern Ontario has the fan base but on top of expansion fees they would need to resolve territorial rights issues with the Leafs and possible Sabres ($$$). Quebec City has the issue of being largely francophone. The TV market ($$$ again) is relatively small and (my opinion) would be tough to attract players to come to, in particular free agents. That might be good for Winnipeg and Edmonton as Quebec City could probably be the least attractive market in the league for players.

[Sylvanfan]

If I have to support a team that's not the Flames, I could get behind the Mexico City Cartel Thugs.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Distance is somewhere around 50 miles iirc.

What matters though is that the drive is somewhere around 90 minutes IF traffic is moving smoothly.

No. It's 23.8 kms. But about 40 mins if traffic is good.


The context which she used it for is completely bogus tho.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Comparing populations of US centers to Canadian centers, in relation to hockey fans and ability to support hockey teams is laughable. There is also this little detail about the density of fans to population that needs to be considered.

Going by memory, but Canadian cities are estimated at about 60%. Some of the southern US cities are estimated at about 5%. I don't recall what the New York area is - it is certainly well above the 5% of southern US cities, but wouldn't be anywhere near the 60% in Canadian cities.

And saying Toronto can only support one, as the metro Toronto area is only 6M is also pretty funny. Alberta easily supports 2 with about 4.5M people, and WPG is doing okay with a population of $850K. Also, the 6M number doesn't include the population of the surrounding area, outside of the metro Toronto area. including from London to Kingston is closer to 10M. (Yes, I know doing the same for the NY area pushes that number up too, but I am comparing Cdn areas because that is a more relative comparison, due to fan density).

Suggesting the Toronto area could only support one team is being willfully obtuse, IMO. The 4 western provinces, with about 12M people spread over an area about the size of Europe, supports 4 teams. Southern Ontario, with a population almost the same, can easily support 2.

The purpose of more than 1 team is to draw extra fans?. Is dropping a second team there drawing in additional fans hence more money or just the sme amount of fans and dividing the fans base? How does this make more revenue? Seems its just dividing the renue in 2 with the fan base.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by butterfly

An E5 joke and an illogical Ponzi Scheme analogy? An Orange Julius joke next? Or someone doing the weather? Hilarious! Say something funny and I'll laugh.

But, yeah, you clearly find humor in "The Simpsons", so we're different.

You’re unpleasant.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

The purpose of more than 1 team is to draw extra fans?. Is dropping a second team there drawing in additional fans hence more money or just the sme amount of fans and dividing the fans base? How does this make more revenue? Seems its just dividing the renue in 2 with the fan base.

It isn't about drawing extra fans, it's about increasing revenue. And you are going to increase revenue more, with a team in Ontario, then you are with a team in Atlanta.

How does having two teams increase revenues? Seriously? Two full arenas doubles gate revenue. And you can charge a LOT more per ticket in Ontario than you can in Atlanta. Then there is TV revenue. Two Ontario teams means more people from the densest hockey fanbase watching more games. Take a look at the viewing audiences of teams in the southern US.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Quebec 8.5 million, 1 player for every 144,067.
Manitoba/Sask. 2.5 million combined, 1 player for every 100,000.

It's actually 50 players for 2.5M, so more like 1 player for every 50000, or roughly 3 times more than Quebec.

Alberta and BC each have around 50 NHLers despite roughly half of QC's population. QC is definitely under-represented.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Rick & Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

You forgot to burp.

[Erick Estrada]

Bringing a team to Atlanta for the 3rd time looks foolish but I imagine much like Phoenix it's all about having a team in a large TV market. I would just hope that if they go that direction they ensure the owner is high profile with deep pockets because that team isn't likely going to make a lot of money at the gates.

[getbak]

The biggest hurdle for a potential 2nd team for Southern Ontario is the century of Leafs fandom that is ingrained in the population.

They would need to find an untapped market, whether geographic or other, in order to have success.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by getbak

The biggest hurdle for a potential 2nd team for Southern Ontario is the century of Leafs fandom that is ingrained in the population.

They would need to find an untapped market, whether geographic or other, in order to have success.

Wouldn't regional fan bases (and who they cheer for) just naturally align as has proven in the past? I mean extra teams were added to the Eastern Conference after the original six (in various ways) and it seems most of them were successful.

Rangers -> Philadelphia, Long Island, Buffalo, New Jersey
Boston -> Hartford
Chicago -> Minnesota, St. Louis, Columbus
Montreal -> Quebec City
Detroit -> Maybe Pittsburgh? Toronto? Chicago?
Toronto -> Buffalo?

Even beyond the OG six (just to name a few):

California Golden Seals -> Los Angeles
Rangers, Philadelphia -> Washington, New Jersey
Kansas City -> St. Louis, Colorado, Chicago
Toronto, Montreal -> Ottawa
Los Angeles -> San Jose, Anaheim
Tampa Bay -> Florida
Vancouver -> Seattle
Phoenix -> Las Vegas

Even with possible expansion:

Dallas -> Houston
Florida -> Atlanta
Toronto -> Hamilton, Mississauga, Markham

I think my point is that fans will gravitate to the team they want to cheer for, as long as the product is good, the owners are competent, and the game experience is worth coming back for.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getbak

The biggest hurdle for a potential 2nd team for Southern Ontario is the century of Leafs fandom that is ingrained in the population.

They would need to find an untapped market, whether geographic or other, in order to have success.

The league territorial agreement is a huge hurdle, and it was one that the NHL went to bat over back in the day with Balsillie.

IMO a team in Hamilton/Burlington/Brantford/St. Catherines area would he hugely successful. and wouldn't hurt Leaf revenue very much at all.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Bringing a team to Atlanta for the 3rd time looks foolish but I imagine much like Phoenix it's all about having a team in a large TV market. I would just hope that if they go that direction they ensure the owner is high profile with deep pockets because that team isn't likely going to make a lot of money at the gates.

During their more competitive years, the Thrashers actually had reasonably decent attendance for a new market in the south. It's kind of sad that the team was mostly terrible their whole time in Atlanta and we never got to see what might happen if they were actually good. With the expansion parameters being much more favourable to building a competitive team right out of the gates now, maybe things would be different. I imagine that is what the NHL is banking on.