American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GGG

I keep this short as this is way off the topic of the thread but we here are discussing trans participation in sports not because it’s a significant issue but because the US right wing is using this as a taking point to justify discrimination.

Also I’m not saying you are talking about it because you are a closet right wing person. I am saying we are talking about because the right has amplified thi narrative that this is a crisis. Let governing bodies in sport address this and let the trans community challange the governing bodies where they aren’t inclusive and support those challenges. They are already doing this. If you don’t know about the IOCs 2015 recommendations, the problems they cause and their revision to these recommendations then you should do more homework before discussing. You seem to be coming from a position where you believe there is no guidance for elite sport. For non-elite sports there is no issue that exists.

Well, yes, the right has amplified this, but I'm not falling for it. You won't see me protesting a drag story time anytime soon. I'm also not treating it like a crisis. I'm calmly interested in what the response will be and I think the trans community will be better off knowing rules.

I also disagree with the bolded. You seriously think a young MtoF trans athlete couldn't face potential discrimination or backlash without the support of established rules? If I had a trans daughter I would really want there to be guidelines in the sport so my daughter wasn't facing uncertainty and could just focus on her sport. I also wouldn't want her dealing with breaking new ground on this - my assumption is she'd have a enough to worry about based on some hardships I've seen my daughter's FtoM friend struggle with.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The UCI (cycling) has, well, not gotten ahead of it, because this just came out, but they have a plan now. Other sports should do the same.



https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/t...es-study-finds

The rules:


The UCI has had over 20 years since I think they first faced this issue with this rider:

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...e-raises-hell/

Just going to leave this here

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cond-year.html

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well, yes, the right has amplified this, but I'm not falling for it. You won't see me protesting a drag story time anytime soon. I'm also not treating it like a crisis. I'm calmly interested in what the response will be and I think the trans community will be better off knowing rules.

I also disagree with the bolded. You seriously think a young MtoF trans athlete couldn't face potential discrimination or backlash without the support of established rules? If I had a trans daughter I would really want there to be guidelines in the sport so my daughter wasn't facing uncertainty and could just focus on her sport. I also wouldn't want her dealing with breaking new ground on this - my assumption is she'd have a enough to worry about based on some hardships I've seen my daughter's FtoM friend struggle with.

I suspect they will face backlash no matter what - if there are rules or no rules. If they dominate - they will get backlash. If they suck - they will get backlash. If they change in the same change room - backlash. If they get their own special change room separate from the team - backlash. If they do nothing but play the sport and are completely average - backlash.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I suspect they will face backlash no matter what - if there are rules or no rules. If they dominate - they will get backlash. If they suck - they will get backlash. If they change in the same change room - backlash. If they get their own special change room separate from the team - backlash. If they do nothing but play the sport and are completely average - backlash.

Yeah, that's my concern, too. That's why I think it would be nice to enshrine these rules before attention is focused on individuals. Then at least you can point to the rule book and say...'this is what you signed up for. quit or stfu.'

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

Just going to leave this here

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cond-year.html

What does that even prove? A few examples of people who train for years after transitioning and became good. That doesn’t sound out of the ordinary.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What does that even prove? A few examples of people who train for years after transitioning and became good. That doesn’t sound out of the ordinary.

LOL The f-ck it doesn't. Third world title, second world record? Yeah, I don't think "became good" quite captures it.

"She started her sports career after transitioning in 2012." So the MTF transition took place at 32 years of age, which basically means every iota of their physical development took place with male levels of testosterone in the body.

'Nevertheless, at 6ft tall and weighing more than 14 stone, she appeared to have a substantial advantage in muscle mass over her rivals.' Those are pretty much my stats. A CIS female weighing 196 lbs in cycling shape is either taking PEDs or tall as hell. 6 feet, 196+ lbs... at those stats, you are pretty much exceeding any CIS female competitor's biological ability for natural muscle growth.

This is one example, but isn't this exactly Sliver's point? Figure out how to structure the rules to keep competition fair, and put them in place now to address it so that in the future, it's already sorted. "The rules permit this, you knew that when you signed up."

[opendoor]

Yeah, I think anyone ignoring the advantage that a transgender female who went through puberty as a male can have over cis gender females in athletics is being wilfully ignorant.

Among athletes, men have something like 60-70% more Lean Body Mass than women. Whereas loss of LBM in male-to-female transgender people after several years of hormone therapy is in the single digits.


That said, obviously the attention it's getting is just right-wing culture war BS. Just like when people who couldn't give a **** about the poor howl about supports for homeless people and water quality on reserves every time the government sends aid to another country.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Intuitively, that makes sense to me - bone structure, too, independent of muscle mass, is different. That being said I am not an expert on these things by any stretch and I doubt anyone here is either. I would suspect that each sporting body would need to generate a report about potential advantages that are specific to that sport.

On an unrelated note I just want to say how surprised I am that we've gotten through multiple pages of this without anyone posting a South Park clip.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What does that even prove? A few examples of people who train for years after transitioning and became good. That doesn’t sound out of the ordinary.

Honestly, I think this response at least addresses the issue. Should trans women be able to compete in athletics directly against CIS females? Wormius thinks yes. I respect you answered the question versus just getting angry it was asked. It's not an unreasonable take. I personally think it's more complicated, but I can appreciate a yes/no answer, too.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

How many priests are demanding access to women's single sex spaces? JK's issues are with regards to keeping women safe. She isn't demanding grocery stores ban men who claim to be women. She's suggesting that they should stay out of rape shelters and women's restrooms.

Should we ban lesbians from the women's washroom while we're at it?

Speaking as a middle aged guy, which I'm going to safely assume you are as well, we've been in public showers and change rooms with gay men more times than we can count.

News flash, a shower after hockey isn't exactly a sexy situation. I'm guessing neither of us have been raped, let alone seen a guy with half a chub.

This is just such a non-issue.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

Societal uptightness passed down through the generations. That, or men constantly peeing on the seat.

Lots of places don't have them and do just fine.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Honestly, I think this response at least addresses the issue. Should trans women be able to compete in athletics directly against CIS females? Wormius thinks yes. I respect you answered the question versus just getting angry it was asked. It's not an unreasonable take. I personally think it's more complicated, but I can appreciate a yes/no answer, too.

Well, I did try to look for some evidence of how long it would legitimately take to become Olympic level at an athletic sport that they just decided to pick up. There’s not much except some dude, Dan, who quit his job and dedicated all of his time to becoming a PGA golfer. He didn’t succeed, but it’s not clear how long before he gave up.

What would your ideal solution be?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

Why wear clothes at all?

[Monahammer]

Can't we look at this in an objective moral way? In a balance of harms view, there is much more harm caused to many more people by allowing trans-folk to participate in the current sporting categories defined by gender: you would have to add the comparative harm of disadvantaging all other athletes within that category.

It's not an elegant solution, but society is about compromises. We need independent sporting categories for people who have made the decision to transition. It's not perfect, but balance of harm here is pretty clear IMO.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why wear clothes at all?

Wait, what gender neutral bathrooms have you been in that people are just walking around naked?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Well, I did try to look for some evidence of how long it would legitimately take to become Olympic level at an athletic sport that they just decided to pick up. There’s not much except some dude, Dan, who quit his job and dedicated all of his time to becoming a PGA golfer. He didn’t succeed, but it’s not clear how long before he gave up.

What would your ideal solution be?

I don't have as definitive of an answer as you.

Like PepsiFree, I would want to just follow the science...I guess specifically the physiology of muscle growth/mass/power/whatever and when it is exactly that CIS males and CIS females diverge. Are, say, pre-pubescent males and females equal in strength, or does a power difference start young. The two sexes obviously diverge during and post-puberty. Men are absurdly strong compared to women.

So if boys are naturally stronger than girls, are puberty-blockers enough to even the playing field for trans girls and CIS girls to compete on fair ground? I really hope so. That would solve so many of the potential issues because at least budding athletes/phenoms could start planning athletic careers young and not have to worry about being disqualified just because they were born with the wrong set of equipment.

If a transition from MtoF begins after puberty, then it obviously becomes more difficult. Does just lowering testosterone even the playing field so it's a fair competition between MtoF trans and CIS females? I don't know. I have one customer who is MtoF trans and she's as big as I am. If she were to join - say - wrestling or boxing or something, I don't see how she wouldn't dominate. Like, even if you could reduce her muscle mass then she would still have a huge reach, larger hands, etc. I can't see it being fair.

Gun to my head and I have to give you a definitive answer right now - I don't like saying it, but I don't think MtoF trans athletes who started transitioning after puberty should be allowed to compete against CIS females.

I am a million per cent open to changing that view should it be possible to show there is no physical advantage for MtoF trans athletes over CIS females. I'm not writing that opinion in stone at all. I'm certain there is a ton of research going into this so hopefully we'll have better clarity in a few years. I also know this a very sensitive issue and nobody wants to be considered a bigot or prejudiced, so the science will be one component of this, but there are also going to be cultural and political issues that won't make definitive answers easy.

Is that fair to the trans athlete? Not at all, but is it fair to the CIS female athletes to have to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a man? Probably not.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why wear clothes at all?

Go ahead and tell us.

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Can't we look at this in an objective moral way? In a balance of harms view, there is much more harm caused to many more people by allowing trans-folk to participate in the current sporting categories defined by gender: you would have to add the comparative harm of disadvantaging all other athletes within that category.

It's not an elegant solution, but society is about compromises. We need independent sporting categories for people who have made the decision to transition. It's not perfect, but balance of harm here is pretty clear IMO.

This doesn’t mesh with reality, though. You can’t just declare where the balance of harm lies without actually backing it up. There’s obviously room to find out where the balance is, but you haven’t found it here.

For example, based on your position, it’s be natural to assume that you think all people born biological men are better than all people born biological women in any sport where there is a sex divide. Regardless of age, build/other biological factors, or (in the case of trans people) the time/age of transition, you think all people born physically male have a distinct advantage over all people born physically female?

It also poses the question of how you then balance trans athletes within their category. If nobody born biologically male can complete against someone born biologically female, that means trans women can’t compete against trans men, so you split that as well. But the numbers of athletes with this split is going to be extremely low, are people supposed to compete in leagues comprising 5-6 other people instead of a few hundred? And at what point have you just made the original situation (trans women in cis men categories and trans men in cis women categories) worse for everyone?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Why wear clothes at all?

To protect your genitals from magpies.

I don’t know why they wear clothes in places where there aren’t magpies. Maybe other birds.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Wormius

To protect your genitals from magpies.

I don’t know why they wear clothes in places where there aren’t magpies. Maybe other birds.

Ferrets.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Go ahead and tell us.

This doesn’t mesh with reality, though. You can’t just declare where the balance of harm lies without actually backing it up. There’s obviously room to find out where the balance is, but you haven’t found it here.

For example, based on your position, it’s be natural to assume that you think all people born biological men are better than all people born biological women in any sport where there is a sex divide. Regardless of age, build/other biological factors, or (in the case of trans people) the time/age of transition, you think all people born physically male have a distinct advantage over all people born physically female?

It also poses the question of how you then balance trans athletes within their category. If nobody born biologically male can complete against someone born biologically female, that means trans women can’t compete against trans men, so you split that as well. But the numbers of athletes with this split is going to be extremely low, are people supposed to compete in leagues comprising 5-6 other people instead of a few hundred? And at what point have you just made the original situation (trans women in cis men categories and trans men in cis women categories) worse for everyone?

What about maybe everyone can't do everything. If you transition from MtoF and you aren't allowed to compete in CIS female sports, maybe that's just the crappy hand you've been dealt on that issue.