American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Frankly, the Trans Women In Sports "problem" is so far down list of trans issues it shouldn't even register until, y'know, there isn't a significant segment of the population not trying to legislate them out of the public eye and another segment trying to actively drive them to suicide.

No one said it’s more important than those issues. That doesn’t mean we can’t have a conversation about it.

Originally Posted by GGG

The important thing to remember is that this is entirely designed to make objections to trans people acceptable.

It’s very similar to how pro choice people would say you wouldn’t make a women carry a child that was the product of rape would you? The goal is to normalize that their are acceptable cases for abortion to get agreeable common ground which leads to the expansion of pro choice beliefs.

The Trans women in sports os the same. You wouldn’t want some to be disadvantaged by having to compete against trans women without any rules. Which then normalizes the discussion about the regulation of trans people. This is intentional. While at the highest levels there should be some guidelines on who is eligible (and there are) the presence of trans women in sports is not a societal crisis. So when this topic is brought up and discussed keep in mind the motivations behind people making it an issue. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing that but the reasons bathrooms, change rooms and womens athletics come up is because they are designed to make discrimination acceptable to the population.

No, no it isn’t similar. This is so absurd that it’s borderline offensive.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Would it be possible to start a thread about transgender issues? It really is not that big an issue in American politics except as noise and there is so much more going on right now that should be talked about in this thread. Supreme Court and student debt should be a primary issue. Fox News looking like they will get crushed by Dominion in their lawsuit and the fall out there. Republicans losing their #### and control of their narratives in congress. All important events happening right now and would be much more interesting.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Would it be possible to start a thread about transgender issues? It really is not that big an issue in American politics except as noise and there is so much more going on right now that should be talked about in this thread. Supreme Court and student debt should be a primary issue. Fox News looking like they will get crushed by Dominion in their lawsuit and the fall out there. Republicans losing their #### and control of their narratives in congress. All important events happening right now and would be much more interesting.

On that topic, having never heard of Dominion prior to the voting fraud conspiracy theories being thrown around, they must have a lot of clout to be embarrassing Fox News like this.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Wormius

On that topic, having never heard of Dominion prior to the voting fraud conspiracy theories being thrown around, they must have a lot of clout to be embarrassing Fox News like this.

It’s less to do with any clout and more to do with some pretty damning evidence coupled with the rest of the media absolutely frothing to dump all over Fox. Rightly so. It’s a garbage organization run by garbage people.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Coach

It’s less to do with any clout and more to do with some pretty damning evidence coupled with the rest of the media absolutely frothing to dump all over Fox. Rightly so. It’s a garbage organization run by garbage people.

I guess I am surprised that Fox didn’t have the ability to crush this lawsuit with money and lawyers. I thought that’s the tact these huge corporations usually try to go with. I am super happy that Dominion is able to embarrass the pants off all of them for spreading that stupidity, but I just thought Fox would do more to contain it the fallout.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I guess I am surprised that Fox didn’t have the ability to crush this lawsuit with money and lawyers. I thought that’s the tact these huge corporations usually try to go with. I am super happy that Dominion is able to embarrass the pants off all of them for spreading that stupidity, but I just thought Fox would do more to contain it the fallout.

I think Dominions global business relys on an unimpeachable belief that their machines can be trusted. The most valuable thing for them is for a court to rule that they were defamed and there was no evidence. I don’t thing there was a dollar value to make this go away.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think Dominions global business relys on an unimpeachable belief that their machines can be trusted. The most valuable thing for them is for a court to rule that they were defamed and there was no evidence. I don’t thing there was a dollar value to make this go away.

Add to that, that many of their employees have been harassed and threatened as a result of Fox outright lying about voting machines.

Actions have consequences.

It's not only the fact that Fox was knowingly reporting these lies, but also that they were actively pushing it as factual. The evidence that I've read so far, demonstrate that they knew this, but still continued to fan the flames for months and months after the election to this very day.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GGG

The important thing to remember is that this is entirely designed to make objections to trans people acceptable.

It’s very similar to how pro choice people would say you wouldn’t make a women carry a child that was the product of rape would you? The goal is to normalize that their are acceptable cases for abortion to get agreeable common ground which leads to the expansion of pro choice beliefs.

The Trans women in sports os the same. You wouldn’t want some to be disadvantaged by having to compete against trans women without any rules. Which then normalizes the discussion about the regulation of trans people. This is intentional. While at the highest levels there should be some guidelines on who is eligible (and there are) the presence of trans women in sports is not a societal crisis. So when this topic is brought up and discussed keep in mind the motivations behind people making it an issue. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing that but the reasons bathrooms, change rooms and womens athletics come up is because they are designed to make discrimination acceptable to the population.

Originally Posted by Wormius

These are all hypothetical risks. There’s a non-zero risk inherent to everything, so saying there is a risk to this or a risk to that because of trans people is so incredibly disingenuous and kind of along that whole line of “just asking questions” and trying to skirt around outright bigotry.

Bernie Sanders called this long before it broke out. Ten years or so ago he identified an issue with the left and right. He proclaimed that when the left had huge success demonizing the right on social issues, they brought the trans community front and centre to show that the right were dinosaurs.

What he predicted is that it was bad news for the trans community as the right was obviously going to react extremely poorly to their community being front and centre and that the trans community would be locked into years of being a "wedge" issue between progressives and regressives.

Unfortunately, he was very correct and here we are with these poor people trotted out into the middle of political discussions year after ****ing year. It's so horrible. You have millions of middle class citizens worried and asking questions about ****ing sports with zero ****ing examples of it actually happening, just the 1/10000 chance where it could feasibly happen while they attempt suicide at a 32-50% rate as youth, further hurt and disenfranchised by the fact that he discussion is there at all.

**** me.

[jayswin]

Sorry probably disregard that, I get a little fired up over trans discussion.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

There's a reason why racing drivers in general are in more or less peak physical condition. Race cars are not easy or relaxing to drive. Everything from the stresses on the body that operating the car imposes (manual brakes, manual steering, stiff and unforgiving suspension) to the mental demands of racing itself require an elite level of physical endurance.

I did some work for Penske Racing in the early 90's and got to know Paul Tracy fairly well, depending on the track he would loose 8-12lbs a race, he was one of the bigger drivers but still.

Most people would crash from exhaustion in one of those things.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Sorry probably disregard that, I get a little fired up over trans discussion.

It is frustrating because it’s so absurd. If every high-school aged trans girl in the US joined an athletic program they would account for roughly 2.5/100 girls. If they followed the same participation rates as cis girls it would be around 1/200. And that’s just attending an athletic program. It doesn’t begin to account for factors like depression and suicide that reduce participation in social activities at a higher rate among trans girls, nor does it attempt to quantify the chance of coming across an athletically gifted trans girl who reduced opportunity for cis girls.

Your child is more likely to get cancer than to be in a situation where a trans girl makes an athletic team over them, and yet that’s what people worry about and want something done about. Shrug their shoulders and say “if they die they die, nothing I can worry about, so long as a trans girl doesn’t make the team over them.”

UK politics are probably worse for this, but US politics are still absolutely ####ed. There was a good Jon Stewart interview with a law maker a while back that highlighted just how absurd and solely ideological the issue is. Just painful to watch.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sure but at some point there are no longer age restrictions, like when it gets to college or professional.

If you ever get to a point where trans athletes are just out here crushing everyone at college and professional sports - then you come up with a rule to deal with it like they do now in the Olympics, etc.

[GirlySports]

This tweet is awesome. 46 Presidents with mullets!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1630765933768724483

[JohnnyB]

Does the Equal Rights Ammendment that's going through in the US right now affect trans women? I guess it was brought forward before trans rights were on the political map as much as they are now. While the ERA seems great from what I know about it, it would be a shame if it went through but somehow left trans women out.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My position is incredibly simple, and it’s that policies and decisions regarding trans girls in sport should be fact-based from both a medical standpoint and the spirit of the sports themselves...

I can't imagine anybody other than a bigot disagreeing with that point. I agree with your position 100% because it's my exact position as well. Does anybody here disagree with that? Of course that's exactly how this should work.

Are trans girls/women on equal and fair footing when competing against CIS girls/women from a physical standpoint? If yes, then this is a complete non-issue and ceases to be a problem to anybody except for those who are transphobic. Let's call those people out and/or ignore the #### out of them.

Originally Posted by GGG

The important thing to remember is that this is entirely designed to make objections to trans people acceptable.

Designed by whom? I'm not part of a master plan of any sort. I haven't been a right-winger undercover pretending to be a left leaner just so I can pounce on this issue after all these years. I also haven't been duped by anybody. I just happen to find the question interesting and the only answer I've seen on CP is to stop asking the question...haven't seen any answers.

Originally Posted by GGG

It’s very similar to how pro choice people would say you wouldn’t make a women carry a child that was the product of rape would you? The goal is to normalize that their are acceptable cases for abortion to get agreeable common ground which leads to the expansion of pro choice beliefs.

The Trans women in sports os the same. You wouldn’t want some to be disadvantaged by having to compete against trans women without any rules. Which then normalizes the discussion about the regulation of trans people. This is intentional. While at the highest levels there should be some guidelines on who is eligible (and there are) the presence of trans women in sports is not a societal crisis. So when this topic is brought up and discussed keep in mind the motivations behind people making it an issue. I’m not accusing anyone here of doing that but the reasons bathrooms, change rooms and womens athletics come up is because they are designed to make discrimination acceptable to the population.

So are you part of this intentional design to normalize which cases of trans women competing and which cases of trans women being barred from competition are acceptable? Because here you are saying - and maybe agree with? - rules placed on trans women affecting how they can participate in sport.

BTW, nobody is calling this a crisis. Remember, it's a twig of concern on a giant redwood tree. An academic question more than anything else. Something that shouldn't stop transwomen from participating in every single facet of life, but also taking into consideration the literally one part - however small - that would seem to have the potential to disrupt how we've traditionally divided the sexes into two camps simply because CIS men are stronger than CIS women when it comes to athletics.

Why do you guys think this conversation centres around making sure trans women can't compete in sports? This is a question about us working together with the express and sole purpose of finding a fair way for trans women to participate in competitive sports. It's about inclusivity (from my perspective, anyway) and not at all about excluding anybody.

Originally Posted by Wormius

These are all hypothetical risks. There’s a non-zero risk inherent to everything, so saying there is a risk to this or a risk to that because of trans people is so incredibly disingenuous and kind of along that whole line of “just asking questions” and trying to skirt around outright bigotry.

There's no bigotry. It's a simple acceptance of the fact that trans women - due to being born biologically male - may have an unfair advantage over CIS females when it comes to sports and athletics. Is it hypothetical? Honestly, I kind of doubt it. I mean, here's an interesting CBC article from 2022: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/transgende...-ban-1.6496497. The conclusion I'm seeing in that article is basically this is still an issue that governing bodies are working on with a goal of being fair to all.

I think it's also a good time to address this instead of kicking the can down the road. I'm a big fan of solving all anticipated problems on sensitive topics before they necessarily arise to limit dragging backlash out. Let's tear off the band-aid so bigots can flap their gums for a bit now and then move onto more important issues like "the jab" or whatever dumb thing these lemmings will bumble towards next. I don't see the advantage to pushing decisions down the road so this can continue to be a topic that distracts from acceptance.

Originally Posted by jayswin

Bernie Sanders called this long before it broke out. Ten years or so ago he identified an issue with the left and right. He proclaimed that when the left had huge success demonizing the right on social issues, they brought the trans community front and centre to show that the right were dinosaurs.

What he predicted is that it was bad news for the trans community as the right was obviously going to react extremely poorly to their community being front and centre and that the trans community would be locked into years of being a "wedge" issue between progressives and regressives.

Unfortunately, he was very correct and here we are with these poor people trotted out into the middle of political discussions year after ****ing year. It's so horrible. You have millions of middle class citizens worried and asking questions about ****ing sports with zero ****ing examples of it actually happening, just the 1/10000 chance where it could feasibly happen while they attempt suicide at a 32-50% rate as youth, further hurt and disenfranchised by the fact that he discussion is there at all.

**** me.

OMG. This is a wildly dramatic post. I'm 100% accepting of trans people. I have one question that I think would be good to resolve. Also, IDK, man, but there aren't zero "####ing" examples of it actually happening. There are more than that and as children today grow up I think we'll see waaaaaaaaaaaay more trans people and this will only become a larger topic of conversation. Why wouldn't you want to give those young trans kids hope and a roadmap for athletic success versus shouting down anybody who even asks what our plan is for them. If I were a trans kid right now and read your post I would find it very defeating. Is your heart in the right place? Maybe, but I don't see how it helps solve what could be a deterrent or wrinkle for a 14-year-old trans kid today dreaming about a career as an athlete. In that kid's shoes, I would want clear answers on how I would be able to have a future in sports versus hearing you tell people to quit asking how a trans kid should plan on navigating a career path.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It is frustrating because it’s so absurd. If every high-school aged trans girl in the US joined an athletic program they would account for roughly 2.5/100 girls. If they followed the same participation rates as cis girls it would be around 1/200. And that’s just attending an athletic program. It doesn’t begin to account for factors like depression and suicide that reduce participation in social activities at a higher rate among trans girls, nor does it attempt to quantify the chance of coming across an athletically gifted trans girl who reduced opportunity for cis girls.

Your child is more likely to get cancer than to be in a situation where a trans girl makes an athletic team over them, and yet that’s what people worry about and want something done about. Shrug their shoulders and say “if they die they die, nothing I can worry about, so long as a trans girl doesn’t make the team over them.”

UK politics are probably worse for this, but US politics are still absolutely ####ed. There was a good Jon Stewart interview with a law maker a while back that highlighted just how absurd and solely ideological the issue is. Just painful to watch.

The numbers are small so we shouldn't lay out a predictable and fair framework that allows all people (trans and CIS and intersex) to compete in sports? By that logic, why are there wheelchair ramps at every sidewalk curb in Lake Bonavista when I've only ever seen one guy use them - and that guy was me on a rascal. Isn't the majority supposed to look out for the minority in our society?

Why is your approach to ignore this? Let's go back to your first point - let's follow the science and facts and come up with rules based on those. Why is your answer for us to quit asking for clarification on what we should do here?

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

If you ever get to a point where trans athletes are just out here crushing everyone at college and professional sports - then you come up with a rule to deal with it like they do now in the Olympics, etc.

Is there a problem with coming up with a rule before it's centered on one individual? That seems like a tall order to expect some 19-year-old trans kid to ready themself for that battle. Talk about a deterrent to a kid. That's a horrible approach.

Haven't I read on this hockey forum you guys worrying about the hypothetical of a young kid taking over Fleury's number on the Flames and facing potential fan backlash from that, yet you want a young trans person to head up changing the rules of sports to accommodate them against the entire weight of college and professional sports? That seems so heartless and - honestly - designed to completely deter trans people from competing. I think it's mean and horrible.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Does the Equal Rights Ammendment that's going through in the US right now affect trans women? I guess it was brought forward before trans rights were on the political map as much as they are now. While the ERA seems great from what I know about it, it would be a shame if it went through but somehow left trans women out.

See here:
https://voteequality.us/faq/transgender/

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why is your approach to ignore this? Let's go back to your first point - let's follow the science and facts and come up with rules based on those. Why is your answer for us to quit asking for clarification on what we should do here?

That’s not my answer, you just quoted my answer. My objection was to inventing scenarios or “risks” that trans girls pose to cis girls and using those imagined scenarios to form an opinion on what should or need to be done.

They are real people that exist. We don’t need to invent problems to solve or reasons to solve the problem when reality is right there.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That’s not my answer, you just quoted my answer. My objection was to inventing scenarios or “risks” that trans girls pose to cis girls and using those imagined scenarios to form an opinion on what should or need to be done.

They are real people that exist. We don’t need to invent problems to solve or reasons to solve the problem when reality is right there.

Yes, I agree with that. Guess I don't see where we disagree here.

[TheIronMaiden]

They should just let every gender compete in one group.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I can't imagine anybody other than a bigot disagreeing with that point. I agree with your position 100% because it's my exact position as well. Does anybody here disagree with that? Of course that's exactly how this should work.

Are trans girls/women on equal and fair footing when competing against CIS girls/women from a physical standpoint? If yes, then this is a complete non-issue and ceases to be a problem to anybody except for those who are transphobic. Let's call those people out and/or ignore the #### out of them.

Designed by whom? I'm not part of a master plan of any sort. I haven't been a right-winger undercover pretending to be a left leaner just so I can pounce on this issue after all these years. I also haven't been duped by anybody. I just happen to find the question interesting and the only answer I've seen on CP is to stop asking the question...haven't seen any answers.



So are you part of this intentional design to normalize which cases of trans women competing and which cases of trans women being barred from competition are acceptable? Because here you are saying - and maybe agree with? - rules placed on trans women affecting how they can participate in sport.

BTW, nobody is calling this a crisis. Remember, it's a twig of concern on a giant redwood tree. An academic question more than anything else. Something that shouldn't stop transwomen from participating in every single facet of life, but also taking into consideration the literally one part - however small - that would seem to have the potential to disrupt how we've traditionally divided the sexes into two camps simply because CIS men are stronger than CIS women when it comes to athletics.

Why do you guys think this conversation centres around making sure trans women can't compete in sports? This is a question about us working together with the express and sole purpose of finding a fair way for trans women to participate in competitive sports. It's about inclusivity (from my perspective, anyway) and not at all about excluding anybody.



There's no bigotry. It's a simple acceptance of the fact that trans women - due to being born biologically male - may have an unfair advantage over CIS females when it comes to sports and athletics. Is it hypothetical? Honestly, I kind of doubt it. I mean, here's an interesting CBC article from 2022: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/transgende...-ban-1.6496497. The conclusion I'm seeing in that article is basically this is still an issue that governing bodies are working on with a goal of being fair to all.

I think it's also a good time to address this instead of kicking the can down the road. I'm a big fan of solving all anticipated problems on sensitive topics before they necessarily arise to limit dragging backlash out. Let's tear off the band-aid so bigots can flap their gums for a bit now and then move onto more important issues like "the jab" or whatever dumb thing these lemmings will bumble towards next. I don't see the advantage to pushing decisions down the road so this can continue to be a topic that distracts from acceptance.



OMG. This is a wildly dramatic post. I'm 100% accepting of trans people. I have one question that I think would be good to resolve. Also, IDK, man, but there aren't zero "####ing" examples of it actually happening. There are more than that and as children today grow up I think we'll see waaaaaaaaaaaay more trans people and this will only become a larger topic of conversation. Why wouldn't you want to give those young trans kids hope and a roadmap for athletic success versus shouting down anybody who even asks what our plan is for them. If I were a trans kid right now and read your post I would find it very defeating. Is your heart in the right place? Maybe, but I don't see how it helps solve what could be a deterrent or wrinkle for a 14-year-old trans kid today dreaming about a career as an athlete. In that kid's shoes, I would want clear answers on how I would be able to have a future in sports versus hearing you tell people to quit asking how a trans kid should plan on navigating a career path.



The numbers are small so we shouldn't lay out a predictable and fair framework that allows all people (trans and CIS and intersex) to compete in sports? By that logic, why are there wheelchair ramps at every sidewalk curb in Lake Bonavista when I've only ever seen one guy use them - and that guy was me on a rascal. Isn't the majority supposed to look out for the minority in our society?

Why is your approach to ignore this? Let's go back to your first point - let's follow the science and facts and come up with rules based on those. Why is your answer for us to quit asking for clarification on what we should do here?



Is there a problem with coming up with a rule before it's centered on one individual? That seems like a tall order to expect some 19-year-old trans kid to ready themself for that battle. Talk about a deterrent to a kid. That's a horrible approach.

Haven't I read on this hockey forum you guys worrying about the hypothetical of a young kid taking over Fleury's number on the Flames and facing potential fan backlash from that, yet you want a young trans person to head up changing the rules of sports to accommodate them against the entire weight of college and professional sports? That seems so heartless and - honestly - designed to completely deter trans people from competing. I think it's mean and horrible.

I keep this short as this is way off the topic of the thread but we here are discussing trans participation in sports not because it’s a significant issue but because the US right wing is using this as a taking point to justify discrimination.

Also I’m not saying you are talking about it because you are a closet right wing person. I am saying we are talking about because the right has amplified thi narrative that this is a crisis. Let governing bodies in sport address this and let the trans community challange the governing bodies where they aren’t inclusive and support those challenges. They are already doing this. If you don’t know about the IOCs 2015 recommendations, the problems they cause and their revision to these recommendations then you should do more homework before discussing. You seem to be coming from a position where you believe there is no guidance for elite sport. For non-elite sports there is no issue that exists.