Exactly what I was getting at. I trust Sliver's reason for worrying, but in my day to day there's too many instances of rube, middle aged white guys that are suddenly all over trans issues. Acting like they care about various issues that the trans community has an effect on.
The uncomfortableness and in some cases flat out hate towards the trans community shines through in their opinions and "concerns".
To be clear, I'm not worried at all.
I literally said this in response to a post specifically saying trans athletes pose no issue in competition:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Okay, that one is a little more problematic, though, isn't it? Like, if my CIS daughter trained her whole life to be a snowboarder in the Olympics, wouldn't she be at a great - and unfair - disadvantage to a MTF trans athlete? Only mentioning that because you brought it up, btw. I'm not out here to chip away at any arguments in support of anything less than total tolerance and acceptance, but in the sports example you brought up it's the one thing I can think of that does create an actual problem for CIS people that I'm not sure we've figured out how to address yet.
If we're going to imply that's transphobic or undermining trans rights you'll need to spell it out for me. Is it a problem even worth mentioning? Probably not, but I didn't bring it up...somebody else did and they did so in a way that pretended it wouldn't be an issue, but I think they're wrong. Of course MtF trans people would have an advantage over CIS females in sports, so yeah, it is something that we'll have to sort out.
It is just a tiny little twig on a 300' redwood that is this topic, though. I never would have brought it up; was just responding to somebody else who had. Kinda thinking maybe it was bait, though, because I just don't see a rational reason why somebody would or could disagree with that fact.
I don't know a lot about the physical demands of F1, I guess, so I couldn't really comment other than to say that it doesn't seem like a sport to me when the equipment you use is doing most of the work. Kind of like the various equestrian disciplines.
Have you ever done those electric go-karts at Speeders? Doing a couple sets of 10 or 15 laps or whatever it is can be quite taxing. Mega core strength to counter the G's. I think F1 would destroy us.
Nah, my experience with go karts was all gas powered on outdoor tracks with rubber tires around the side. By the time the electric carts got popular I was too old / big to ride in them.
Anyway, I guess I won't argue the F1 thing from a point of ignorance, but seems like its own category of thing overall so whatever. Although, I definitely DO NOT agree that anything that causes a high heart rate is a sport; I suspect peoples' heart rates spike pretty high when playing certain video games competitively.
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I'm not out to defend it too much, but I think one thing you could look at to determine how sport-like curling is is to compare male vs female. Mens curling involves much harder shots, bigger takeouts and plays, where womens curling features more skilled shots because they don't have the power of the men. So by that attribute you could logically argue it is more than just skill, requiring strength. It's similar to golf in that way, but maybe golf isn't a sport either.
Are men truly using all their strength to hurl a rock down the ice in curling?
Having been somewhat of a long-time curler i cannot fathom using more strength than a solid push off the hack for takeout weight
Nobody watches female sports anyway, and I imagine less people would watch a sport that was all-trans, based on how many people seem to feel about things as simple as a drag queen reading a book.
As for the second, I doubt that’s a valid concern. Most children do not enroll in sports with the express purpose of winning, and at the age where most children enroll in sports to begin with it is already mixed girls and boys, so kind of stupid to say girls would be discouraged by trans-girls but not by boys.
We're not talking about elementary school recreational sports, that's daycare.
Girls around 9-10 start to enroll in serious organized teams to develop as athletes. They aim for one of the most important things that drives enrollment, US college scholarships. Again, the odds are small but just enough for dreamers. Trans would make girls quit earlier as they get passed over.
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We're not talking about elementary school recreational sports, that's daycare.
Girls around 9-10 start to enroll in serious organized teams to develop as athletes. They aim for one of the most important things that drives enrollment, US college scholarships. Again, the odds are small but just enough for dreamers. Trans would make girls quit earlier as they get passed over.
How many people are going to do this? If its a real problem at some point deal with it then.
Are men truly using all their strength to hurl a rock down the ice in curling?
Having been somewhat of a long-time curler i cannot fathom using more strength than a solid push off the hack for takeout weight
Quote:
For starters, men would have the edge in a curling battle of the sexes because core muscle strength affects the speed with which curlers propel themselves from the “hack” (akin to a starting block) and reach the point where they are required to release the stone. A top male curler can cover that distance in about five seconds, whereas a top female takes about seven seconds.
Power also is an asset as stones accumulate near the bull’s-eye-like target at one end of the ice and the roughhousing begins. Curling teams amass points by placing stones in concentric rings on the ice and knocking opponents’ stones out of scoring position. When it’s essential to send a rival’s stone flying, strength helps.
“If the other team has a couple of rocks in the rings [scoring position], generally the male curler is going to be able to move more granite, so to speak, and throw a little harder,” said Matt Hamilton, 28, of McFarland, Wis., a 6-foot-2 curler who is on the men’s team and will compete with his sister Becca, 28, in the inaugural Olympic mixed doubles event.
Come up with rules on how they can make it fair. Just like they do when some giant 8 year old is playing football against normal sized kids or some dynamo is scoring 15 goals a game in his novice hockey league. They figure out a solution so people can play against proper competition.
Come up with rules on how they can make it fair. Just like they do when some giant 8 year old is playing football against normal sized kids or some dynamo is scoring 15 goals a game in his novice hockey league. They figure out a solution so people can play against proper competition.
Sure but at some point there are no longer age restrictions, like when it gets to college or professional.
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F1 is probably the support least good at converting available skill in the world to top Athletes. There are no middle class F1 drivers. Far worse then any other Olympic sport which already is bad at rewarding economic capacity rather than physical capacity.
We're not talking about elementary school recreational sports, that's daycare.
Girls around 9-10 start to enroll in serious organized teams to develop as athletes. They aim for one of the most important things that drives enrollment, US college scholarships. Again, the odds are small but just enough for dreamers. Trans would make girls quit earlier as they get passed over.
Well, most children start sports in elementary school and then continue sports because they started in elementary school and enjoy it.
Saying US college scholarships are one of the most important drivers for sports enrolment is going to require a source. I’d argue the majority of children (right through their teenage years) play sports because they like to play sports.
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Have you ever done those electric go-karts at Speeders? Doing a couple sets of 10 or 15 laps or whatever it is can be quite taxing. Mega core strength to counter the G's. I think F1 would destroy us.
And, to be totally honest, I don’t know why “some girl at some point may possibly be discouraged by the skill of one single other athlete and will therefore abandon sport forever instead of enrolling solely for the chance at a US scholarship” is something I or anyone else should care about.
Explain why that matters to anyone, and then explain why such an isolated hypothetical scenario requires concern enough to put meaningful resources into addressing. Because it truly sounds like transphobic nonsense.
F1 is probably the support least good at converting available skill in the world to top Athletes. There are no middle class F1 drivers. Far worse then any other Olympic sport which already is bad at rewarding economic capacity rather than physical capacity.
Lewis Hamilton came from a poor family. Albon's family didn't have much money, either. Alonso is from a working class family. That's 3 of 20 off the top of my head. It's generally true, yes, but any more so than, say, hockey?
And, to be totally honest, I don’t know why “some girl at some point may possibly be discouraged by the skill of one single other athlete and will therefore abandon sport forever instead of enrolling solely for the chance at a US scholarship” is something I or anyone else should care about.
Explain why that matters to anyone, and then explain why such an isolated hypothetical scenario requires concern enough to put meaningful resources into addressing. Because it truly sounds like transphobic nonsense.
It's just part of the numbers game. It could be for any reason, it could be because of trans, it could be because you're in a competitive state/province/country. Just saying that allowing trans athletes adds to the competitiveness.
I think it's naive to think that girls play for the love of the game. Sure everyone starts at 5 years old and if they hate it, they hate it. Done. So there has to be some love and interest there.
But when you get to the level that's needed to be competitive these days, it's about goals. Speak to parents that are active in their daughter's sports, they begin to sacrifice time and money. If you speak to a lot of these parents, they're 100% all in. From choosing teams and coaches, donating money, donating time, volunteering. Fighting all the bureaucracy and politics etc...
So allowing trans adds more competition and one could argue more unfair competition, although there are probably many things that are unfair already. Not saying that trans is the one thing that sudden broke the system, it's just an additional new element that could cause discouragement.
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Last edited by GirlySports; 02-28-2023 at 02:09 PM.
Yeah, but I think the point is, how does one or two trans athletes in a field of 10s of thousands something to be concerned about is it? Maybe it’s competitive, but that’s just a couple of people that might or might not, move ahead of non-trans athletes. So in the totality of things, the bottom 2 athletes are squeezed out. How many trans athletes to date have had some advantage? I mean, I guess there was that one South Park episode…
It's just part of the numbers game. It could be for any reason, it could be because of trans, it could be because you're in a competitive state/province/country. Just saying that allowing trans athletes adds to the competitiveness.
I think it's naive to think that girls play for the love of the game. Sure everyone starts at 5 years old and if they hate it, they hate it. Done. So there has to be some love and interest there.
But when you get to the level that's needed to be competitive these days, it's about goals. Speak to parents that are active in their daughter's sports, they begin to sacrifice time and money. If you speak to a lot of these parents, they're 100% all in. From choosing teams and coaches, donating money, donating time, volunteering. Fighting all the bureaucracy and politics etc...
So allowing trans adds more competition and one could argue more unfair competition, although there are probably many things that are unfair already.
How much more competition?
Seriously, go take a look at how many trans women there are compared to cis women. After looking at those numbers and just taking a vague guess as to how many of each group go into athletics, if you think the concern you have is still valid and worth resources to address, justify why.
