American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Because I don't believe there are "genuine fears about the shelters issue" unless someone can give me an example of what there should be genuine fears about. It makes no sense to me, and unless someone can explain it to me in terms I understand, I simply suspect that it's bull####.

Additionally, I do not care what the source of an explanation is when all I'm asking for is one plausible scenario that makes me think, "oh, I can see that happening sure - you're right, that would be a problem". This shouldn't be difficult or require an expert in the administration of shelters to do; I'm not asking for a peer-reviewed study or actual data here. The people, you included, saying that there are "genuine fears" that you believe in should presumably be able to articulate them - I'm not even asking for an example that actually happened, just something that MIGHT happen that seems realistic.

OK, if a person fears it - and many have expressed fear - it is a genuine fear. If I’m scared of something, it may not be a rational fear. It doesnt stop it from being a genuine fear.

I can’t put myself in the position of someone that would need a shelter because beyond my experience as a young child who didn’t know anything different, I never needed shelter, nor am I likely to.

Society and it this issue is fast developing, and public policy is not keeping pace. That is what we need to devote resources to in order to get as close to the right balance we need to protect our most vulnerable and assuage their fears whether they are rational or not.

[corporatejay]

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

[Barnet Flame]

I’m going to duck out now - this is making me recall things I’d rather not.

Last word - I just want the most vulnerable to find the comfort and support they need when they need it and in a way they feel safe - regardless of their beliefs and their gender. I don’t however, feel remotely qualified to come up with the answers.

[TorqueDog]

I could only hazard a guess that the reason that it might be a problem at women's shelters is due to those women experiencing PTSD due to their past traumas with men. When I was 23 or so, one of my IT customers was a women's shelter in the SW. As the new guy on the team, it was a huge deal that I was allowed in at all. We didn't have any female consultants on staff, but someone had to do the work. To say access was restrictive is to not to do it justice, it was like Fort Knox in that place.

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

Non-gendered bathrooms seem to work pretty well at the bars and restaurants I've noticed them at.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

Cost.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

OK, if a person fears it - and many have expressed fear - it is a genuine fear. If I’m scared of something, it may not be a rational fear. It doesnt stop it from being a genuine fear.

I can’t put myself in the position of someone that would need a shelter because beyond my experience as a young child who didn’t know anything different, I never needed shelter, nor am I likely to.

Society and it this issue is fast developing, and public policy is not keeping pace. That is what we need to devote resources to in order to get as close to the right balance we need to protect our most vulnerable and assuage their fears whether they are rational or not.

Well, first, I'm unlikely to care much about peoples' irrational fears. Certainly I would be completely opposed to irrational fears influencing public policy in any manner, much less a manner that harms a vulnerable group like trans women. So maybe my question for you is, notwithstanding that the fear you refer to may be genuine, if it's irrational, why does it matter to you in this context? Why would it be a good idea to "balance" a trans woman's access to services that in many cases and without exaggeration save their lives, and in others at least increase the quality of their lives, against irrational fears?

Second, even if people have irrational fears, they can usually express them in terms that make them comprehensible. Some people are afraid of flying, for example - if you ask them why, they might explain that they know the statistics about how safe flying is, but even so, they just have this irrational fear that the plane will somehow fall out of the sky, or an engine will explode, and they'll die. Okay, I can see that happening even if being afraid of it happening is irrational in light of how unlikely it is. So, what's the explanation here? There has to be something.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

OK, if a person fears it - and many have expressed fear - it is a genuine fear. If I’m scared of something, it may not be a rational fear. It doesnt stop it from being a genuine fear.



I can’t put myself in the position of someone that would need a shelter because beyond my experience as a young child who didn’t know anything different, I never needed shelter, nor am I likely to.



Society and it this issue is fast developing, and public policy is not keeping pace. That is what we need to devote resources to in order to get as close to the right balance we need to protect our most vulnerable and assuage their fears whether they are rational or not.

I deal with women's shelters quite often, and can't think of a single time they've been concerned or reason for them to be concerned. I also have a few trans patients and can't imagine why I'd be concerned about them going there....


This is a made up issue

[PepsiFree]

How is “unnamed, possibly irrational fear” all the justification people think is needed to change policy and redirect resources?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

'cause chicks are nasty.

I say that as a guy who was a night cleaner when I was 18 at Lake Louise. The women's bathroom was foul by the end of the day.

I think it's because it's a total PITA for the women to disrobe from their ski gear to do their business. Add to that they're cramped in a little stall trying to hang this and that and pull their pants down over ski boots that if something goes wrong they're just like, "#### it, I gotta get out of here." Throw in about 30 full rag bags and you are in for an absolute disaster.

Guys' bathroom, on the other hand is mainly just guys walking in, whipping their dick out at a urinal, and walking right back out. Did have a guy #### his pants and then threw his underwear into the tank of the toilet, which was pretty gross, so we're not totally off the hook here.

[Street Pharmacist]

Also, the locations of the shelters are purposefully not available, and the only way to get in one is to be fleeing violence and it's very carefully screened. It's this how someone is going to plan to commit violence to women?


As for the rape in the bathroom thing, only 7% of rapes are from someone unknown, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest this population is going to be on the rampage in women's bathrooms.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

CIS: Cisgender (often shortened to cis; sometimes cissexual) is a term used to describe a person whose gender identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth

MTF: : a transgender woman. The descriptors male to female (MTF) and female to male (FTM) are often used in medical and sociological literature to describe trans people, and sometimes they use them to talk about themselves.

I had to do some Googling to understand parts of this most recent conversation. Figured I'd share the results in case there were any others in the same boat.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

As for the rape in the bathroom thing, only 7% of rapes are from someone unknown, so I think it's a bit ridiculous to suggest this population is going to be on the rampage in women's bathrooms.

No stats are necessary to make this a "bit ridiculous" though, that's why I'm asking for some explanation as to what exactly people are afraid could potentially happen from allowing trans women into women's restrooms. The only thing I can come up with is that they foresee a risk of heterosexual men thinking, "hey, if I dress like a woman I can get into this woman's restroom without anyone batting an eye, and once I'm there I'm free to rape away to my heart's content - time to go get myself a wig and some lipstick". If that is the fear, it's not only irrational, it's total nonsense. Completely, unquestionably insane. No one who believes that that's a scenario worth being afraid of should be listened to about anything, ever, much less how to set public policy on this topic.

Again, that can't possibly be what people are afraid of, right? It can't possibly be that stupid. So I'm trying to get someone to tell me what alternative, plausible scenario I might be missing here.

[PsYcNeT]

I think this is just the Circle of Bull#### at work

Bigots hate Trans Women, so they stoke fear in the general populace that they Are A Threat and push the Trans Women Aren't Women/Man In A Dress line, women who are victims of abuse/need to piss and are in need of a shelter/bathroom believe the screeching propaganda and thus no longer consider these a safe space, capital-B Bigots use propagandized women's fears as justification to hate Trans Women and the circle continues.

[timun]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why have gendered bathrooms at all?

The original reasoning was likely rooted in Victorian-era ideas about "modesty" and "protecting the fairer sex" from men, much in the same way a lot of current-day political narrative talks about protecting women from men who use transsexuality to gain permission to these "safe spaces" and act like perverts.

A lot of why they're still gendered is our building codes. The way it works is one has to forecast the number of male and female occupants of a building and calculate a minimum number of required toilets for them on the basis of sex. It is assumed that the female occupants will proportionally need more of them than the males. For example for assembly occupancies it's assumed you need twice as many toilets for females vs. males.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I will truly never understand the obsession CIS people (particularly men) have railing against trans issues.

You are probably a 40 year old, partially overweight accountant. Why does it matter if trans women compete in sports?

The bathroom issue is just so easily solvable. Most places now have gender neutral bathrooms with separate stalls and communal sinks. How is this an issue?

The reason is fairly obvious. If you are both homophobic and objectify every women you see the existence trans women mean you might be objectifying a women with a penis.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

The reason is fairly obvious. If you are both homophobic and objectify every women you see the existence trans women mean you might be objectifying a women with a penis.

There’s probably a layer of projection to some of the concerns as well. I imagine some of the men most concerned with trans women using women-centred private spaces (bathrooms, locker rooms, etc) on account of what they believe to be a motivation centred around sexual assault and rape is due to the fact that they either have these fantasies themselves, or believe they would find it impossible to control themselves sexually in those situations.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by timun

The original reasoning was likely rooted in Victorian-era ideas about "modesty" and "protecting the fairer sex" from men, much in the same way a lot of current-day political narrative talks about protecting women from men who use transsexuality to gain permission to these "safe spaces" and act like perverts.

A lot of why they're still gendered is our building codes. The way it works is one has to forecast the number of male and female occupants of a building and calculate a minimum number of required toilets for them on the basis of sex. It is assumed that the female occupants will proportionally need more of them than the males. For example for assembly occupancies it's assumed you need twice as many toilets for females vs. males.

Genuine thank you.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, that one is a little more problematic, though, isn't it? Like, if my CIS daughter trained her whole life to be a snowboarder in the Olympics, wouldn't she be at a great - and unfair - disadvantage to a MTF trans athlete? Only mentioning that because you brought it up, btw. I'm not out here to chip away at any arguments in support of anything less than total tolerance and acceptance, but in the sports example you brought up it's the one thing I can think of that does create an actual problem for CIS people that I'm not sure we've figured out how to address yet.

Is that possible for your child, Silver?

If not, then it doesnt specifically matter to you one way or another except to complain about.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Is that possible for your child, Silver?

If not, then it doesnt specifically matter to you one way or another except to complain about.

People can only discuss things that directly affect them. In that case, we should close this thread to Canadians and we should ban all these cis men from discussion trans issues.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Smith and Wesson™ The Official Gun Supplier of the Proud Boys.