[Barn Burner] Boomer: "You were wrong"

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Where did Connie say that? I must have missed it

On the Barn Burner episode that he was on. I'll find and post.

*listened but couldn't find it - it may have been on 960. Will try to find it.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Man, just imagine if Tre does in fact go and Darryl gets a puppet GM. That Duha fantasy trade with Montreal could actually happen.

If Tre is gone , I also hope Sutter is shown the door. The last thing this organization needs is Sutter with more power

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Man, just imagine if Tre does in fact go and Darryl gets a puppet GM. That Duha fantasy trade with Montreal could actually happen.

In the NFL that formula seems to work with the coaches in on picking the GM, I wonder if that would work in the NHL with the short shelf life of the coach.

I certainty would not try that formula out with Darryl Sutter that's for sure.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If Tre is gone , I also hope Sutter is shown the door. The last thing this organization needs is Sutter with more power

I genuinely wonder if it's one or the other. This particular topic fascinates me.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree with his assessment of the state of the team, but I don't think the Flames can realistically rebuild at this point now. The opportunity to rebuild was gift wrapped after Gaudreau left and Tkachuk was traded. The pieces we signed are locked in now and the team is on rails for the next years. There is no egress from this path. Going all-in means you are all-in, and some mistakes just can't be undone.

Imagine if the Flames were going into the 2023 draft with multiple first, and one that would have easily been a top 5 or 10. Even if the team was losing, there would at least be a lot of hype for the future. As it is right now, there is only anxiety.

Eh, not really.

Huberdeau, Kadri, Mangiapane, And Coleman are the only forwards signed past next year.

On D, only Andersson and Weegar.

That’s $39M for a first line and a 1st pairing.

The cap is going to be $100M in three years.

They can trade Backlund, Lucic, Lindholm, Toffoli, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, and that’s just off this roster.

Retain some money to move Markstrom, run with Wolf and Vladar.

They could absolutely do the right thing like St Louis, but that would mean they’d have to be honest with themselves.

So it won’t happen.

[SebC]

The notion that Treliving isn't brave seems pretty off to me. Like Huberdeau's contract extension, not brave? It's the biggest bet in the history of the franchise, and he hadn't even played a game. Treliving not making the decisions you'd agree with doesn't make him a coward.

Spoiler!

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Man, just imagine if Tre does in fact go and Darryl gets a puppet GM. That Duha fantasy trade with Montreal could actually happen.

I have a strong feeling it would be Bob Murray as GM and I don’t think he’s the puppet type, but how this dynamic will play out over the next few months is fascinating


People say Lombardi but I don’t think he’s the puppet type either. I think he ran the show in LA management wise

[Harry Lime]

I think that a rebuild isn't really possible given the current state of contracts. If you were to look at the players who are going to have to stay for the retool (or it would be silly to move), you start selling two of my favorite players on the team (Lindholm and Eat Bread). I'm not sure how I would react as a fan if that were to happen. What the team would look like for a retool :

Huberdeau - Kadri - Dube
Pelletier - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic - Ruzicka - Phillips
Lewis - Zohorna - Ritchie

Weegar - Andersson
Zadorov - Tanev
Mackie - Stone

Hanafin, Toffoli, Lindholm, Mangiapane sold at a high.
Zary, Kylington, Coronato, Wolf and various 'B' prospects waiting in the wings.

Is it worth it, or does the current lineup start to produce? Laid out, I would almost sit with the current lineup and hope that they turn the corner. You could also get a king's ransom for those four players in trade at the deadline.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by dino7c

this isn't true...they don't need 115 points out of Huberdeau. They would be succeeding right now with a few more wins.

10 more points from Huberdeau
average Markstom
Mangiapane not taking the first two months off

ect.

Maybe if you only care about barely squeaking into the playoffs

They definitely need him to be a star and a dangerous 1st line to be a contender

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bongsong

Just lost

He doesn't look disinterested

That’s an opinion but he does to me. He is a star player but I don’t remember too many times he impressed and looked like he was going to carry the team.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If Tre is gone , I also hope Sutter is shown the door. The last thing this organization needs is Sutter with more power

If Tre is gone, I think Sutter will step down.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Rhett? He doesn't really lay one out. He does lay out that the organization hasn't built anything of quality which is why they never have any real level of success. He does note a GM being brave enough to make hard decisions - something Treliving/the Flames failed to do.

Boomer does - says sell what you can. Admit that you were wrong with what you did last summer, and start off in a new direction.

Yeah, I agree with both Rhett and Boomer. The foundation this team is built on isn't a good one. It's loaded with expensive middle tier talent and no game breakers. It's just not a formula for success. It was a valiant attempt by Treliving last summer, but it was a misguided one. Conroy even spoke to the fact that it was a rebuild if Florida didn't put up the offer they did. Acknowledge that you made the wrong decision in that position, and start a new journey. Don't waste any more time on this team as it is structured.

Is this is copied and pasted from Feb 2021? Because I can’t tell.

Rhett, Boomer and everyone else said the same thing about our old core. Then those stars left. Now it’s meet the new stars, same as the old stars.

I love it when people wait until after the fact to say tear it all down. Thanks a lot captain hindsight. They should have been clamouring for a rebuild when it was September of 2021 and we were heading into the season with our two best players on expiring contracts. Even in July of 2022 they could have shared this wisdom but they didn’t.

Now 2/3 of the way into the first season with a new core and it’s a failure. Geez good call guys. Way to stay ahead of the curve.

[SaskyFlamesFan]

I said it in the Huberdeau thread and will say it here again. After next season they have a load of players thay will be UFA.

Hanifin
Tanev
Zadorov
Kylington
Backlund
Lindholm
Toffoli

This summer, whomever is steering the ship, needs to decide who is staying and who is going. Then trade the others. Get high level prospects out of the ones you can. I think Lindholm/Backlund are redundant. You could get some really good pieces for Lindholm, I say trade him. Try signing Tanev to a cheaper deal, to help the D. I like Hanifin but if he is asking too much, bye bye.

I think this team looks very different next year. Huberdeau, Kadri, Mangiapane, Coleman, Dube and Pelletier are the best bets to return. On D you have Andersson and Weegar and that might be it. I can’t see them going in to the season with that many pending UFAs, they can’t afford to sign them all.

I believe this summer could bring significant change.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by SebC

The notion that Treliving isn't brave seems pretty off to me. Like Huberdeau's contract extension, not brave? It's the biggest bet in the history of the franchise, and he hadn't even played a game. Treliving not making the decisions you'd agree with doesn't make him a coward.

Spoiler!

Rhett has spoken about his in the past. The (Hunerdeau/ Weager) extensions and timing of them were the easy route for Treliving. And Rhett used Don Waddel as an example of making tough decisions, like waking away from Nejkevoic, moving Dougie Hamilton, offer sheeting Kotkanemi.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by SebC

The notion that Treliving isn't brave seems pretty off to me. Like Huberdeau's contract extension, not brave? It's the biggest bet in the history of the franchise, and he hadn't even played a game. Treliving not making the decisions you'd agree with doesn't make him a coward.

Spoiler!

I agree, I don't think a lack of bravery is the right way of putting it.
A lack of willingness to ever rebuild is more appropriate but that's more an organizational philosophy than a bravery issue.

[Flamesfan05]

Treliving makes as many moves as any GM in the league. He is plenty brave.

It’s his ability to evaluate talent and build the proper team that is questionable

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Rhett has spoken about his in the past. The (Hunerdeau/ Weager) extensions and timing of them were the easy route for Treliving. And Rhett used Don Waddel as an example of making tough decisions, like waking away from Nejkevoic, moving Dougie Hamilton, offer sheeting Kotkanemi.

I don't think it was the easy route. It was the route to take for a team trying to still contend. And not just this year but for at least 3 more years.

The Canes are a good team but those are odd examples
- They didn't move Dougie Hamilton. They wanted to keep him and he chose to sign elsewhere. Giving them credit for that one is odd.
- I don't ultimately think offer sheeting Kotkanemi and signing him to his current deal is a good move. It's bold sure. But I don't think he's much of a player. 20 points in 51 games.

Why are the Canes a good team?
Simply put: drafting.

Aho, Jarvis, Necas, Svechnikov, Pesce, Slavin.

Their key core are guys they drafted. And now they are supplementing them with other players.

But the moves you are praising? Meh.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Rhett has spoken about his in the past. The (Hunerdeau/ Weager) extensions and timing of them were the easy route for Treliving. And Rhett used Don Waddel as an example of making tough decisions, like waking away from Nejkevoic, moving Dougie Hamilton, offer sheeting Kotkanemi.

Didn't Brad also move on from Dougie Hamilton in a big move for Lindholm and Hanafin that worked out really well but could have blown up in his face? Seems to me we're cherrypicking the meaning of brave moves.

[SuperMatt18]

They aren't wrong - but the reality is there is no pinch point right now, and really wasn't in the past offseason. IMO this upcoming offseason is actually the bigger decision point.

Last offseason Gaudreau was already gone. And unfortunately they were somewhat forced into the decision to trade Tkachuk and lock into Huberdeau, Kadri, Weegar for 7+ years. But at this point Tkachuk was the only piece you didn't maximize into futures (and we actually don't know what the other return was).

BUT as long as they don't double down and go extend the expiring players in 2024 this offseason then it's fine.

Actually there is an argument to be made that this is the best year to go all in. Then if it doesn't work this year you need to be honest in the offseason and move:

Mangiapane: 2 x $5.8M (27 years old)
Backlund: 1 x $5.35M (34 years old)
Lindholm: 1 x $4.85M (29 years old)
Toffoli: 1 x $4.25M (31 years old)
Dube: 1 x $2.3M (25 years old)
Hanifin: 1 x $4.95M (27 years old)
Tanev: 1x $4.5M (33 years old)
Zadorov: 1 x $3.75M (28 years old)
Kylington: 1 x $2.5M (26 years old)
Vladar: 2 x $2.2M (26 years old)

As long as you're honest about this team and don't go lock these players up into their mid-30s, and you sell them and don't try to go all in for one more year next year it's fine.

The idea should have been this 22-23 season was the last kick of the can. If it doesn't work then you tear it down.

Then you just move forward with Huberdeau, Kadri, Coleman, Andersson, Weegar, Markstrom as the carry overs that will be tougher to move with their contracts. And really the goal is to implement a system that allows them to maximize their counting numbers and potentially allow you to move them. Then you hope people like Pelletier, Coronato, Zary, and Wolf can develop into good pieces, in addition to all the assets you bring in for the names above.

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by dino7c

what is his plan exactly? Rhett is the guy that will say I told you so if they don't win the cup...in a 32 team league

Rhett would be dissatisfied with a loss in a cup final? Aside from it reminding him of his personal battles in Cup finals, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't poo poo on the franchise making the SCF. No need for hyperbole.

While he may not have a plan now, I think it's fair to say his decision would have likely been to rebuild once JG/Chucky left.