Too early to panic about Markstrom

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Cam Talbot.

Talbot played 1 season for the Flames - 26 games.

My post was about goalies remaining as Flames, and improving from year to year. Almost every goalie that has come here has regressed in year 2 or 3 and was then shipped out. Talbot does not rebut that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Talbot played 1 season for the Flames - 26 games.

My post was about goalies remaining as Flames, and improving from year to year. Almost every goalie that has come here has regressed in year 2 or 3 and was then shipped out. Talbot does not rebut that.

I assume your post had something to do with whether Flames have helped goalies get better.

Talbot was better in his year here than he was before he got here.
Markstrom improved from year 1 to year 2, now he has stepped back a lot.
Ramo improved while he was here, didn't he?
Rittich improved for a while he was here. I don't feel he regressed as much as he hit a wall.

I see your point that Flames have rarely, if ever, taken a goalie through years of continuous improvement without a step back. But does that often happen with goalies? Who are the goalies that left here and immediately got better?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I assume your post had something to do with whether Flames have helped goalies get better.

Talbot was better in his year here than he was before he got here.
Markstrom improved from year 1 to year 2, now he has stepped back a lot.
Ramo improved while he was here, didn't he?
Rittich improved for a while he was here. I don't feel he regressed as much as he hit a wall.

I see your point that Flames have rarely, if ever, taken a goalie through years of continuous improvement without a step back. But does that often happen with goalies? Who are the goalies that left here and immediately got better?

For most of the goalies that have come through here, it has been the beginning of the end of their career.

Name a goalie, since Kipper, that the Flames have developed successfully.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Dude can make some big saves but he chokes just as often

At the end of the day, can not be trusted

My dad(former Canuck's fan) actually summed it up pretty nicely - "That's the Luongo school of goaltending for ya"

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For most of the goalies that have come through here, it has been the beginning of the end of their career.

Name a goalie, since Kipper, that the Flames have developed successfully.

Are you only looking at young goalies then?

If the flames deserve criticism for Markstrom stepping back, do they get some credit for his stellar play last year?

Do you give them credit for turning around Talbot?

If you don't care for the Flames goaltending since Kipper, IMO it is more about talent identification than development.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are you only looking at young goalies then?

If the flames deserve criticism for Markstrom stepping back, do they get some credit for his stellar play last year?

Do you give them credit for turning around Talbot?

If you don't care for the Flames goaltending since Kipper, IMO it is more about talent identification than development.

Did they turn around Talbot? We only have one (26 game) season, so it's pretty difficult to determine progression. Maybe the FLames were just better defensively than Philly and Edmonton. It's not like he didn't have even better numbers prior to Edmonton.

And meanwhile, Rittich's numbers were going the wrong way at the same time.

As for Markstrom, one great, anomalous year, when the Flames had a great year all around. But again, no progression - this year he has regressed to numbers that are worse than his pre-2022 seasons.

Name one goalie that progressed - not one good season, but actual progression - under the Flames' tutelage.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For most of the goalies that have come through here, it has been the beginning of the end of their career.

Name a goalie, since Kipper, that the Flames have developed successfully.

Do established goalies really "progress"? I don't think so unless they are of the few truly generational or elite netminders. Markstrom was what he is when he signed his deal here and that isn't going to change at his age. Most established goalies tend to fluctuate from their averages for a handful of years before inevitably falling off a cliff with age.

Vladar has certainly progressed since coming here, but he is pre-apex. Wolf is definitely progressing as well.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Do established goalies really "progress"? I don't think so unless they are of the few truly generational or elite netminders. Markstrom was what he is when he signed his deal here and that isn't going to change at his age. Most established goalies tend to fluctuate from their averages for a handful of years before inevitably falling off a cliff with age.

Vladar has certainly progressed since coming here, but he is pre-apex. Wolf is definitely progressing as well.

Of course they do, just like any player.

Too early to tell about Vladar, as he hasn't had any kind of significant workload. Wolf is still a kid. We'll see if the organization turns either of these guys into a legitimate starter or not.

[Strange Brew]

Well as I said, Flames aren't churning out great goalies. No disagreement there

IMO that is more about swings and misses on the player acquisition front. Elliott, Johnson, Hiller, Lack, Smith et al were not examples of good or bad development IMO. Those are all difficult turds to polish.

Did they do a good job of developing Ramo, Berra, Ortio, Rittich, Gillies?

I can't think of one of these goalies where it would have been reasonable to expect years of continued progression.

How are they doing with Vladar?

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

My dad(former Canuck's fan) actually summed it up pretty nicely - "That's the Luongo school of goaltending for ya"

Well at least Marky isn't flopping around like a half dead fish every game.

What a complete joke 7uongo is in the hall of fame. lol

I dont give 2 craps if he is funny on twitter.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Well at least Marky isn't flopping around like a half dead fish every game.

What a complete joke 7uongo is in the hall of fame. lol

I dont give 2 craps if he is funny on twitter.

Uh... what?

Luongo has the 2nd most games played and shots faced of all NHL Goaltenders, 2nd to Brodeur.
4th all time in wins.
9th all time in shutouts
Top 10 in career save percentage in the last 6+ decades

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I assume your post had something to do with whether Flames have helped goalies get better.

Talbot was better in his year here than he was before he got here.
Markstrom improved from year 1 to year 2, now he has stepped back a lot.
Ramo improved while he was here, didn't he?
Rittich improved for a while he was here. I don't feel he regressed as much as he hit a wall.

I see your point that Flames have rarely, if ever, taken a goalie through years of continuous improvement without a step back. But does that often happen with goalies? Who are the goalies that left here and immediately got better?

Giguerre? Smith was better in Edmonton right off the bat than Calgary but that's just an accidental stat IMO. Vernon was better in Detroit than his last few years in Calgary.

Ramo was pretty much the same in his three years - a little worse stats wise in his last year.

Thing is - Calgary has only drafted a couple quality goalies and only one stayed here very long (Vernon). And the goalie acquisitions putside of Kipper have disappointed (though I have not given up on Markstrom by a long shot).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Do established goalies really "progress"? I don't think so unless they are of the few truly generational or elite netminders. Markstrom was what he is when he signed his deal here and that isn't going to change at his age. Most established goalies tend to fluctuate from their averages for a handful of years before inevitably falling off a cliff with age.

Vladar has certainly progressed since coming here, but he is pre-apex. Wolf is definitely progressing as well.

I think this is right. I can't even tell a lot of differences between his actual play this year versus last (though I can't say that for the team in front of him). I think year over year Markstrom will give solid goaltending - better than average most years. His team helped him to a third place Vezina performance last year.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Uh... what?

Luongo has the 2nd most games played and shots faced of all NHL Goaltenders, 2nd to Brodeur.
4th all time in wins.
9th all time in shutouts
Top 10 in career save percentage in the last 6+ decades

Doesn't matter. When you turn hockey into soccer you deserve no recognition.

Besides he could never bring it when it counted. Except for giving up 7 goals against.

[ComixZone]

Jacob Markstrom is on pace for one of the two worst seasons that a Flames starting goalie has had in the modern NHL era.

Currently rocking an .895 save percentage. Let's look at our starting goalies over the last 20 years:

02/03: Turek - .902
03/04: Kiprusoff - .933
05/06: Kiprusoff - .923
06/07: Kiprusoff - .917
07/08: Kiprusoff - .906
08/09: Kiprusoff - .903
09/10: Kiprusoff - .920
10/11: Kiprusoff - .906
11/12: Kiprusoff - .920
12/13: Kiprusoff - .882
13/14: Ramo - .911
14/15: Hiller - .918
15/16: Ramo - .909
16/17: Elliott - .910
17/18: Smith - .916
18/19: Rittich - .911
19/20: Rittich - .907
20/21: Markstrom - .904
21/22: Markstrom - .922
22/23: Markstrom - .895

It's very evident why so many Flames fans are piling on Markstrom this year. He has not been good.

[Toonage]

Related, does Steve Macfarlane post here anymore or did he drop the match, declare his job is done and head out?

[Johnny Makarov]

Apologists need to stop. He has reverted back to Panthers Markstrom.

[Northendzone]

it would be nice if sutter just accepted the fact that this season markstrom is really struggling and just start playing vladar more in a #1 role.

seems pretty clear that markstrom would really struggle to win 4 out of 7 games.

Markstrom then needs to ensure he find a good mental coach in the off season and work on that and come back fresh in september

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah even last night - there was no blatantly soft goal in the first, and the Flames skaters were unobjectively bad.

But in the end the Avs only had around 1.5 xG for the period (according to Moneypuck, NST had it at like 0.8 xG), and they scored three goals.

Bad goaltending makes poor play look even worse. On all three goals his lack of confidence and just abhorrent lateral movement were on display.

The lateral movement issues truly make me wonder if he's nursing an injury, and if he is and the Flames keep playing him then that's just a ridiculous decision when you have Vladar and Wolf available.

And my biggest concern is that he's faltering at the biggest moments of the game.

He has an .885 save percentage and -11.64 GSAA when the game is within 1 goal - horrendous.

Vladar has a .917 and is +4.15 GSAA in the same situation where the game is within 1 goal.

That's the issue right now. When the game is tight we can't get a save and are getting just horrendous goaltending.

Tied- 0.891

Leading by 1 - 0.869
Leading by 2+ : 0.880

Trailing by 1: 0.891
Trailing by 2+: 0.964

Nice of him to show up when he already spotted the other team a 2 goal lead though.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah even last night - there was no blatantly soft goal in the first, and the Flames skaters were unobjectively bad.

But in the end the Avs only had around 1.5 xG for the period (according to Moneypuck, NST had it at like 0.8 xG), and they scored three goals.

Bad goaltending makes poor play look even worse. On all three goals his lack of confidence and just abhorrent lateral movement were on display.

The lateral movement issues truly make me wonder if he's nursing an injury, and if he is and the Flames keep playing him then that's just a ridiculous decision when you have Vladar and Wolf available.

And my biggest concern is that he's faltering at the biggest moments of the game.

He has an .885 save percentage and -11.64 GSAA when the game is within 1 goal - horrendous.

Vladar has a .917 and is +4.15 GSAA in the same situation where the game is within 1 goal.

That's the issue right now. When the game is tight we can't get a save and are getting just horrendous goaltending.

Tied- 0.891

Leading by 1 - 0.869
Leading by 2+ : 0.880

Trailing by 1: 0.891
Trailing by 2+: 0.964

Nice of him to show up when he already spotted the other team a 2 goal lead though.

Yup. With all the blaming going on with the coaching and team results right now, the biggest issue comes down to Markstrom not doing his job. It may feel like the Flames aren't producing enough goals, but they are currently 18th in the NHL for that, which is not bad. And despite horrible goaltending from Markstrom, they are 17th in goals against. So they're doing okay in keeping the puck out, but of course have room for improvement.

So majority of Flames loses are coming from Markstrom letting goals in when the game is tight. He's putting the team behind rather than keeping them ahead.

There's no justification for why Sutter keeps playing him more than Vladar, and this falls on him.