Based on some testing that some have done, the practicality of EV trucks seems pretty lacklustre, at least as far as towing anything goes with the F150 EVs.
Towing is pretty much a no-go, but for a work truck I just can't see how someone would pick a regular F-150 if they just tool around the city, and never need to fill a massive tank with gas. It'll pay for itself quickly(the price difference, anyway). With all the power options for tools on a job site, and the massive frunk, you can tell this was engineered by truck people who know how people use trucks. The Cybertruck is pretty much the opposite. Plus you won't get laughed off the job site, which is always a nice bonus.
I think one of the biggest tells about how Not A Genius Musk is stems from his obvious attempts at saying or posting "smart" things, but only impressing yokels and those who are already dickriding him.
I think one of the biggest tells about how Not A Genius Musk is stems from his obvious attempts at saying or posting "smart" things, but only impressing yokels and those who are already dickriding him.
Towing is pretty much a no-go, but for a work truck I just can't see how someone would pick a regular F-150 if they just tool around the city, and never need to fill a massive tank with gas.
The towing angle is a bit of a red herring meant to make EV trucks look bad. Sure, in real world testing the Rivian RT or Ford Lightning sees their ranges cut in half when towing 7-9,000 pounds, but a Ford F-150 in similar testing towing only 7,000 pounds sees its MPG drop from an EPA expectation of 20 MPG to a very unimpressive 11 mpg, or a 45% drop in range. And the Ram 1500 sees a drop of 50% from 24 MPG to around 12. It's the nature of towing.
This is a known problem with towing, which is why Airstream is actually prototyping a travel trailer with electric propulsion capability (eStream). This will be the future of all long haulers IMO. Propulsion and battery storage in the bed of the trailer which will extend the range dramatically and probably provide longer ranges as the tech is improved. This whole story that EVs suck at towing is bad narrative that tells only half the story. Combustion engines suck at even worse, especially when it comes to towing up grade or getting the package to speed. It's why locomotives use electric propulsion and not diesel engines to drive the wheels. Range is cut in half for almost all vehicles engaged in towing. This shouldn't be a surprise.
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The towing angle is a bit of a red herring meant to make EV trucks look bad. Sure, in real world testing the Rivian RT or Ford Lightning sees their ranges cut in half when towing 7-9,000 pounds, but a Ford F-150 in similar testing towing only 7,000 pounds sees its MPG drop from an EPA expectation of 20 MPG to a very unimpressive 11 mpg, or a 45% drop in range. And the Ram 1500 sees a drop of 50% from 24 MPG to around 12. It's the nature of towing.
This is a known problem with towing, which is why Airstream is actually prototyping a travel trailer with electric propulsion capability (eStream). This will be the future of all long haulers IMO. Propulsion and battery storage in the bed of the trailer which will extend the range dramatically and probably provide longer ranges as the tech is improved. This whole story that EVs suck at towing is bad narrative that tells only half the story. Combustion engines suck at even worse, especially when it comes to towing up grade or getting the package to speed. It's why locomotives use electric propulsion and not diesel engines to drive the wheels. Range is cut in half for almost all vehicles engaged in towing. This shouldn't be a surprise.
Totally agree with everything you are saying, but for hauling a trailer it's the 20-40 minute stops when working chargers still are a bit hard to find every 150-250km that are a significant challenge compared to the gas fillup every 250km that are very easy to find.
I think my next vehicle will be a F150 lightning and I've had a plug in hybrid minivan for 4 years, but if I had a holiday trailer I'm not sure I'd buy an electric truck yet for that very reason. I think in about 5 years or so it's be a non issue though
Last edited by Street Pharmacist; 01-04-2023 at 08:22 PM.
The towing angle is a bit of a red herring meant to make EV trucks look bad. Sure, in real world testing the Rivian RT or Ford Lightning sees their ranges cut in half when towing 7-9,000 pounds, but a Ford F-150 in similar testing towing only 7,000 pounds sees its MPG drop from an EPA expectation of 20 MPG to a very unimpressive 11 mpg, or a 45% drop in range. And the Ram 1500 sees a drop of 50% from 24 MPG to around 12. It's the nature of towing.
This is a known problem with towing, which is why Airstream is actually prototyping a travel trailer with electric propulsion capability (eStream). This will be the future of all long haulers IMO. Propulsion and battery storage in the bed of the trailer which will extend the range dramatically and probably provide longer ranges as the tech is improved. This whole story that EVs suck at towing is bad narrative that tells only half the story. Combustion engines suck at even worse, especially when it comes to towing up grade or getting the package to speed. It's why locomotives use electric propulsion and not diesel engines to drive the wheels. Range is cut in half for almost all vehicles engaged in towing. This shouldn't be a surprise.
No, towing is a real issue with an EV, given all the stops for charging. And you aren't doing a quick 20 minute charge in a full size truck towing(and nevermind the space needed to facilitate that). If you need to tow, an EV makes little sense. But not that many people need to tow.
And the Airstream idea, in a world of infinite resources might make sense. But adding a massive battery to something you use a handful of times a year is wasteful.
Are there solutions? Sure. But they are far from ideal, and it's OK if some use cases aren't solved yet. It's not a big deal, no need to pretend the problem isn't a problem. I don't think we should be spending money and research on edge cases.
Good conversation, if a bit off topic. At some point, I'm looking to replace our Kia Sorento with something like a Rivian or electric F150. Our main towing needs are taking out a fairly light bass boat (3000ish pounds) to lakes within an hour or two. The Kia tows it well, but definitely takes a hit on mileage. Would the EVs I mentioned handle those round trips fine? There definitely aren't going to be chargers around the lakes we go to.
And the Airstream idea, in a world of infinite resources might make sense. But adding a massive battery to something you use a handful of times a year is wasteful.
So we’re going to draw the line of “wasteful” for the giant hunk of metal that sits in storage for 11 months a year, and the energy glutton truck that is bought to haul it around, but inevitably ends up as a solo occupancy commuter for 90% of its trips… when we add some batteries to it? That’s finally too much?
Good conversation, if a bit off topic. At some point, I'm looking to replace our Kia Sorento with something like a Rivian or electric F150. Our main towing needs are taking out a fairly light bass boat (3000ish pounds) to lakes within an hour or two. The Kia tows it well, but definitely takes a hit on mileage. Would the EVs I mentioned handle those round trips fine? There definitely aren't going to be chargers around the lakes we go to.
It's less about the weight than the drag. By going slower you'll get significantly more mileage.
There's lots of decent videos, but Kyle from Out of Spec usually does a good job showing what he gets in the real world out of the electric vehicles.
No, towing is a real issue with an EV, given all the stops for charging. And you aren't doing a quick 20 minute charge in a full size truck towing(and nevermind the space needed to facilitate that). If you need to tow, an EV makes little sense. But not that many people need to tow.
And the Airstream idea, in a world of infinite resources might make sense. But adding a massive battery to something you use a handful of times a year is wasteful.
Are there solutions? Sure. But they are far from ideal, and it's OK if some use cases aren't solved yet. It's not a big deal, no need to pretend the problem isn't a problem. I don't think we should be spending money and research on edge cases.
Instead of batteries in the trailer frame it might be better to have a 50 or 60 litre fuel tank and a generator built into the tongue structure. Running the generator with it plugged into the truck while towing seems like a good solution.
Thanks. That's a long video, but I'll watch it at some point. The lakes around here are not highway travel, but more like turn every 15 min. I don't think a bass boat behind a truck or SUV is adding much drag. I imagine the weight from all the stop starts is the bigger issue.
So we’re going to draw the line of “wasteful” for the giant hunk of metal that sits in storage for 11 months a year, and the energy glutton truck that is bought to haul it around, but inevitably ends up as a solo occupancy commuter for 90% of its trips… when we add some batteries to it? That’s finally too much?
More that supplies for EV batteries are tight, so it makes sense to use them in the most useful way possible(again, if the main goal this is supposed to help the environment, which often times seems to fall down the priority list). I guess you could finance it through grid-to-battery backup to make it useful. RV storage yards turned into grid scale batteries...hrmm...I might be on to something.
No, towing is a real issue with an EV, given all the stops for charging. And you aren't doing a quick 20 minute charge in a full size truck towing(and nevermind the space needed to facilitate that). If you need to tow, an EV makes little sense. But not that many people need to tow.
How is that different from having to fill up every 150-200 miles with a ICE truck? Same problems just overblowing it for one platform over another. And yes I know, I own a Ford truck and understand towing quite well. There narratives floating around are really one-sided and don't speak to the realities of both platforms.
Just had a buddy come down from Calgary for Christmas and he scoffed at our EV. Had nothing but bad things to say about it... until he experienced it for himself. Went from being an absolute hater to potential customer because he got to see firsthand that most of the press out there is total bull####. I wish I could have got him in my employee's Rivian. You compare apples to apples and there is a lot more discussion to be had, usually coming down to preference or motivation.
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And the Airstream idea, in a world of infinite resources might make sense. But adding a massive battery to something you use a handful of times a year is wasteful.
In your opinion. Some people may appreciate the platform. For example, if you're boondocking and you have that massive battery and solar plant working in your favor you could stay off grid for as long as your water and black tank allows. The benefits are actually quite intriguing.
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Are there solutions? Sure. But they are far from ideal, and it's OK if some use cases aren't solved yet. It's not a big deal, no need to pretend the problem isn't a problem. I don't think we should be spending money and research on edge cases.
No one is pretending the problem doesn't exist, just pointing out that the same problem for ICE engines is being completely discounted and ignored while the EV problem is being amplified. I want to see equitable coverage of the problem rather than pointing at one and laughing about it having a small dick when the other has its pants around its ankles showing how off their "innie." And don't discount edge cases. Edge cases are where the break throughs and innovation happen.
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How is that different from having to fill up every 150-200 miles with a ICE truck? Same problems just overblowing it for one platform over another. And yes I know, I own a Ford truck and understand towing quite well. There narratives floating around are really one-sided and don't speak to the realities of both platforms.
Just had a buddy come down from Calgary for Christmas and he scoffed at our EV. Had nothing but bad things to say about it... until he experienced it for himself. Went from being an absolute hater to potential customer because he got to see firsthand that most of the press out there is total bull####. I wish I could have got him in my employee's Rivian. You compare apples to apples and there is a lot more discussion to be had, usually coming down to preference or motivation.
In your opinion. Some people may appreciate the platform. For example, if you're boondocking and you have that massive battery and solar plant working in your favor you could stay off grid for as long as your water and black tank allows. The benefits are actually quite intriguing.
No one is pretending the problem doesn't exist, just pointing out that the same problem for ICE engines is being completely discounted and ignored while the EV problem is being amplified. I want to see equitable coverage of the problem rather than pointing at one and laughing about it having a small dick when the other has its pants around its ankles showing how off their "innie." And don't discount edge cases. Edge cases are where the break throughs and innovation happen.
Had a similar experience with my Dad. Albertan / Ex-O&G guy...5mins behind the wheel of my Tesla and he was auto driving everything and raving about the performance. He'll likely never buy an ICE again after they got a place in PHX.
Even the discussion here...if we're talking about towing cases for range anxiety instead of worrying about never being able to find a charger / batteries degrading, etc then the EVs have won.
On a truck you just put in a bigger gas tank to solve the problem for 1k. Also time to charge vs time to fill means the time duration of the frequent breaks increases even with proper charging infrastructure.
I think you miss the point about the airstream being a waste of finite resources. It doesn’t matter if it fits someone lifestyle. Society is better off with the batteries being put into regular EVs or PHEVs to get maximum emmissions reductions with limited battery supply.
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I guess 2023 is the year we try to set the record for number of threads with egregiously long EV discussion. I think that's three on the front off topic page right now, and that doesn't include the actual EV thread, lol.
Good conversation, if a bit off topic. At some point, I'm looking to replace our Kia Sorento with something like a Rivian or electric F150. Our main towing needs are taking out a fairly light bass boat (3000ish pounds) to lakes within an hour or two. The Kia tows it well, but definitely takes a hit on mileage. Would the EVs I mentioned handle those round trips fine? There definitely aren't going to be chargers around the lakes we go to.
Given the pricing you are probably better off buying a 10 year old truck and something like a model 3 for a daily driver. I have a buddy with the E150 and you can get significantly more range doing 80km/hr while towing.
Thanks. That's a long video, but I'll watch it at some point. The lakes around here are not highway travel, but more like turn every 15 min. I don't think a bass boat behind a truck or SUV is adding much drag. I imagine the weight from all the stop starts is the bigger issue.
Not as much as you might think. Every stop charges uses regenerative breaking and recharges the battery somewhat so stop and go isn't as draining as higher speeds. Drag is actually almost always a bigger factor in range reduction/fuel economy, even with ICE vehicles. And drag is roughly four fold increase for every doubling of speed, so a 60km/h trip has 1/4 the drag of a 120km/hr trip. Those winding roads may make it so you don't notice near as much of a range loss as a highway tow trip
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I guess 2023 is the year we try to set the record for number of threads with egregiously long EV discussion. I think that's three on the front off topic page right now, and that doesn't include the actual EV thread, lol.
The EV crowd are trying to de-throne the Vegans as the Kings of Self-Righteousness.
"How do you know if someone has an EV? Dont worry, they'll tell you. Then they'll explain how it saves the World!"
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