[News] UPD: Tkachuk arbitration hearing set for Aug 11

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

-nvm sarcasm detector broken-

his point was sarcasm

[GioforPM]

Thinking it over I have some pretty big doubts about NJD actually offering 2OA for just Tkachuk, who was (a) a rental and (b) looking for more money than they offered Gaudreau.

EDIT: I suppose it might have been conditional on Tkachuk signing with them before the draft, which is a huge and almost unmeetable condition.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If you read my first post, it actually said my target were first round picks. So maybe give that post a once over again.

And late 1sts are not as valuable as some fans want to believe.

Would you trade a 100 point 24 year old for Zary and Pelletier and Coronato?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

I don't mean that the Flames should have issued the ultimatum before the traded deadline. This year was their best chance in making a run since 2004. They had to go for it.

After the season they could have told Gaudreau that if he hasn't signed by June 25, the Flames would be looking at moving on from him. They didn't have to let it go down to the wire and miss out on draft day opportunities or laying the groundwork for some prime free agents.

They could have done that as well. But like 2 teams made Gaudreau an offer as a free agent. Columbus was shocked he would sign there so they aren't going to give up an asset for him. So you are hoping the Devils will offer something of value and they are negotiating against themselves so they aren't going to give up much.

So yeah - maybe you cost yourself a 3rd or 4th round pick. But really - who cares.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And late 1sts are not as valuable as some fans want to believe.

Typically that's true but the 2023 draft is deep.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And late 1sts are not as valuable as some fans want to believe.

Would you trade a 100 point 24 year old for Zary and Pelletier and Coronato?

If the options are those 3 in a return or a Free Agency Gaudreau 2: Electric Boogaloo, im taking those 3. You've still been dodging the question of who you would be targeting in a Tkachuk trade.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Typically that's true but the 2023 draft is deep.

Yes, a little higher value. So let's look at the best, or at least one of the very best drafts of all time, 2003. From 25 though 32, the picks were:

Anthony Stewart
Brian Boyle
Jeff Tambolini
Corry Perry
Patrick Eaves
Shawn Belle

Are you going to trade Tkachuk for a pick from that pool? And that is as good as the bottom of Round 1 ever looks.

(also, they won't get a 2023 pick by flipping Tarasenko)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Anaheim told their UFAs that they needed to re-sign before the trade deadline or be traded. Some re-signed, some were traded. It wasn't a contractual drop dead deadline, but a franchise imposed one.

The Flames could have done that with Gaudreau. They could have drawn a line in the sand and stuck with it. I have the impression they are doing that with Tkachuk.

Hey, I was all for trading Gaudreau prior to the season began. I couldn't justify the risk of walking him to becoming a UFA, but by the time the trade deadline rolled around, the team was one of the top teams in the West. You just can't pull the plug on a successful regular season. The message it sends to the players (both current and potential future players) would destroy the team and hinder their future. At that point, we were past the point of no return.

There was no need for that kind of deadline with Gaudreau either because he said he wasn't negotiating until after the season. That should have been the red flag Treliving needed right there. But hey, I guess we got a division title and 2nd round appearance out of the gamble. Not worth it, but if the team would have won the Cup, everyone would be praising Treliving for his guts. Unfortunately, his gamble didn't pay off and win or lose, he deserves "credit" for that result.

None of this should be a surprise to anyone. It was always the possible worst case scenario and one that many people had the foresight to predict. Having said that, I am still cautiously optimistic that the angle here is still to get Tkachuk to sign on. I hope I am right, but would be lying if I wasn't a little worried.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If there isn't one, then it's pretty silly to say one strategy will work and another won't, isn't it?

That's my point exactly. Thank you. I think that there are a lot of silly posts in which people are completely crapping on one another for their ideas.



The one you replied to seems to be the one that Ottawa is following. They drafted their core and seemed to be signing them to long-term deals. Let's see if that plan works.


Seems to be the exact plan that Edmonton tried to follow in their rebuild 2.0 with Hall, Eberle and RNH, and that failed badly. However, I think the distinction between the two is that Edmonton is terrible at drafting and development (and overall management). Ottawa so far seems better at drafting and development - let's see how well managed they are, and if this plan works. I do think it is a reasonable course of action.


What plan do you suggest the Flames follow?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's my point exactly. Thank you. I think that there are a lot of silly posts in which people are completely crapping on one another for their ideas.



The one you replied to seems to be the one that Ottawa is following. They drafted their core and seemed to be signing them to long-term deals. Let's see if that plan works.


Seems to be the exact plan that Edmonton tried to follow in their rebuild 2.0 with Hall, Eberle and RNH, and that failed badly. However, I think the distinction between the two is that Edmonton is terrible at drafting and development (and overall management). Ottawa so far seems better at drafting and development - let's see how well managed they are, and if this plan works. I do think it is a reasonable course of action.


What plan do you suggest the Flames follow?

For a Canadian team, I like the strategy Ottawa is employing. But it is not without its risks. Edmonton 2.0 is a good example. But the bottom line for them is that they are now married to that group of young players, for better or worse. And better is not a guarantee.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Lol Francis said on Tim and Friends that Leafs fans need to brace themselves for Matthews leaving when his contract is up

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For a Canadian team, I like the strategy Ottawa is employing. But it is not without its risks. Edmonton 2.0 is a good example. But the bottom line for them is that they are now married to that group of young players, for better or worse. And better is not a guarantee.

I agree completely. I really do like the strategy they are employing, and I also do think it is far from guaranteed. Anything can happen, and some of their young stars can regress as easily as they have started to shine with no pressure.


I do think it is a good gamble for them to take, but definitely a gamble.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Lol Francis said on Tim and Friends that Leafs fans need to brace themselves for Matthews leaving when his contract is up

He’s not wrong.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, a little higher value. So let's look at the best, or at least one of the very best drafts of all time, 2003. From 25 though 32, the picks were:

Anthony Stewart
Brian Boyle
Jeff Tambolini
Corry Perry
Patrick Eaves
Shawn Belle

Are you going to trade Tkachuk for a pick from that pool? And that is as good as the bottom of Round 1 ever looks.

(also, they won't get a 2023 pick by flipping Tarasenko)

If the Flames have any aspirations of making the playoffs this year and making noise once they're there, their return for Tkachuk needs to include a quality roster player coming back such as Kyrou.

Chucky for Kyrou, a decent prospect, and the Blues' 1st round pick is probably the most they can realistically hope for in a trade. Hopefully I'm wrong and they get more, but I'm not counting on it.

And yes I did use the three "theres" in succession.

[Enoch Root]

thanked for the 3 'theres'

and I agree that the return has to include a player that is at least of Kyrou's caliber

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

More players across sports are running their contracts down. Fans will need to realize that GMs will only be able to do so much going forward.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

For a Canadian team, I like the strategy Ottawa is employing. But it is not without its risks. Edmonton 2.0 is a good example. But the bottom line for them is that they are now married to that group of young players, for better or worse. And better is not a guarantee.

The strategy is fine. It requires some luck though. Edmonton got those three 1st rounders in a row at a terrible time. They landed some very average 1st overalls.

Hall
RNH
Yakupov.

If they drafted the 3 years before they get...
Kane, Stamkos, Tavares.
The next 3 drafts after are...
McKinnon, Ekblad, McDavid.

If you have either of those trios and manage your team semi well you should become an elite team.

Personally I don't think Ottawa drafted a good enough core. They have some good players but they are shelling out money to guys who so far don't look like they are elite. So their team will likely improve and become a decent hockey club but I don't think they become a true contender with that core.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

He’s not wrong.

The Matthews contract is like the Gaudreau contract. With Gaudreau the Flames got one UFA year, with Tkachuk at least it ended before he became a UFA so you could figure it out this summer and deal him. Matthews deal walks him right up to UFA status and you can't really trade him before he becomes a UFA since you're a contender.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I agree completely. I really do like the strategy they are employing, and I also do think it is far from guaranteed. Anything can happen, and some of their young stars can regress as easily as they have started to shine with no pressure.


I do think it is a good gamble for them to take, but definitely a gamble.

The Flames reportedly offered Johnny an 8x8 last contract and he refused, pretty sure Matt was offered more than 3 years as well.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The strategy is fine. It requires some luck though. Edmonton got those three 1st rounders in a row at a terrible time. They landed some very average 1st overalls.

Hall
RNH
Yakupov.

If they drafted the 3 years before they get...
Kane, Stamkos, Tavares.
The next 3 drafts after are...
McKinnon, Ekblad, McDavid.

If you have either of those trios and manage your team semi well you should become an elite team.

Personally I don't think Ottawa drafted a good enough core. They have some good players but they are shelling out money to guys who so far don't look like they are elite. So their team will likely improve and become a decent hockey club but I don't think they become a true contender with that core.

This is the concern/risk. If these players don't continue to progress as hoped, there is little that Ottawa can do about it, because they all have large/long contracts.

You got them all locked up - great. Let's hope you're right about all of them.