[Signing] Gaudreau to Columbus (7 x $9.75 million)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Yep, he just missed the most important step...embracing the rebuild.

Well, that isn't decided yet since we are two weeks out from your artificial deadline. But do you really think you can flood the market with Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Tanev, Lindholm and Markstrom like that? Not gonna happen. It's taken Chicago years and they still haven't finished (nor have they gotten anywhere).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

What? If I'm a GM in your situation (which apparently I need to be to disagree with the current GM's actions), I absolutely should be able to set my own deadline and stick with it.

He can't call my bluff if I'm not bluffing.

Oh no you don't ...

This is your definition of a situation not mine. All I've asked is for you to explain how you'd pull it off.

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Treliving should have known by the draft to plan accordingly. Given him the best offer and if Gaudreau didn't sign, time to move on instead of giving him that offer with an hour left to free agency.

Show have known? How?
What happens if they ignored your false deadline?

[Icon]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, that isn't decided yet since we are two weeks out from your artificial deadline. But do you really think you can flood the market with Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Tanev, Lindholm and Markstrom like that? Not gonna happen. It's taken Chicago years and they still haven't finished (nor have they gotten anywhere).

Chicago didn't trade two of their biggest pieces though either (because they didn't want to leave). Kane would have (and probably still would) got a better return in a trade than the rest of the moves they made combined.

But I agree, announcing a firesale and trying to trade all of Tkachuk, Mangi, Tanev, Lindholm and Markstrom in one off season would be nuts.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Of course he does. It's how he leverages the control you grant him. You want to eliminate that control, change the deadline on him. Make it so YOU control the timeline or YOU control the numbers. Surrendering all control is how you get run over in negotiations, like being forced to agree to everything the player demands in a last second counter, and still having the player walk.

Great now there are two of you.

Maybe one of you can answer how that works.

Give him a deadline. He ignores it as most agents would.

Then what?

Both sides are fully aware of when the actual deadline is (was). Why do two internet dudes think they'd be able to over power an agent of the top player available in free agency a week before the actual deadline that every one is aware of?

Do you guys read your own stuff?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Yep, he just missed the most important step...embracing the rebuild.

You honestly believe a GM decides on when to rebuild and not an ownership group?

Seriously?

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I agree with you. The Flames aren't finishing top 3 (bottom 3...) without Gaudreau. Because they didn't embrace the rebuild like Chicago did leading up to the draft which I would have done.

Chicago got rid of anything that had a pulse outside of Kane, who has a NMC that may request a trade anyways, and Jones who they can keep for the rebuild. They're finishing bottom 3 because they got rid of DeBrincat, Dach, Hagel, Kubalik, Strome while letting de Haan walk. They took active steps to make sure they have the best chance at drafting Bedard.

How are you selling all the quality players on this team at once to tank hard enough for a chance at top 3? Just because Gadreau left doesn't make this team on par with Arizona or Chicago. There isn't a big enough market for all the Tanev's, Lindholms and a Markstrom at one time. Not to mention Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Backlund, etc. And with a hall of fame coach?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

They actually couldn't off load the salary to make it happen. Big difference.

They wouldn't have had to offload salary if they hadn't acquired other players first. Gaudreau was a lower priority to them than DeAngelo.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I agree with you. The Flames aren't finishing top 3 (bottom 3...) without Gaudreau. Because they didn't embrace the rebuild like Chicago did leading up to the draft which I would have done.

Chicago got rid of anything that had a pulse outside of Kane, who has a NMC that may request a trade anyways, and Jones who they can keep for the rebuild. They're finishing bottom 3 because they got rid of DeBrincat, Dach, Hagel, Kubalik, Strome while letting de Haan walk. They took active steps to make sure they have the best chance at drafting Bedard.

Even then, until Kane is gone, it's going to be difficult to finish bottom 5. He's a gamer.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You honestly believe a GM decides on when to rebuild and not an ownership group?

Seriously?

I believe good GMs with proven track records can convince ownership when to rebuild, yes.

If Treliving can't blow his nose without Edwards permission, then just take all my criticism for where the Flames are and apply it to Edwards but let's make Edwards the GM so there's no ambiguity, have the Flames save some money getting rid of the middle man lol.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Treliving won the previous round. I daresay Toronto and Boston did when Gross did that as well.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. He lost the most important one, the last one. And I'm not that certain how badly he won that previous round. He signed Gaudreau to 9.246% of the cap, not far off of Robert Thomas' 9.848% of cap. Seems like fair market value?

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Great now there are two of you.

Maybe one of you can answer how that works.

Give him a deadline. He ignores it as most agents would.

Then what?

I say "It was a pleasure to have you Johnny and good luck in your future endevaours except when playing the Flames." I then look to see if there were any rumours into the Devils looking at Tkachuk while asking Tkachuk if he wants to be the face of the franchise during the rebuild by signing an 8 year deal or I trade him at the draft, if possible.

I rebuild.

But apparently I can't in this hypothetical because you don't like that suggestion so therefore ownership doesn't allow it.

So all we can do is assume this is the best possible situation the Flames could be in?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I believe good GMs with proven track records can convince ownership when to rebuild, yes.

If Treliving can't blow his nose without Edwards permission, then just take all my criticism for where the Flames are and apply it to Edwards but let's make Edwards the GM so there's no ambiguity, have the Flames save some money getting rid of the middle man lol.

Nah ...

Owners in every city would make that call. Doesn't mean they should go Dallas Cowboy and become their own GM.

You still have a guy with a hockey background that is running the business, but deciding to sell off assets and rebuild is right up there with what to do with a franchise player.

Not a GM choice on his own in any market.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I was suggesting if Gaudreau refused to sign by the draft, the Flames would go into a rebuild like Chicago and draft top 3 with their own pick next year.

So how did you guarantee that the Flames' pick will be top 3, and not three of Anaheim, Arizona, Buffalo, Chicago, Philadelphia, Montreal, or San Jose? How do you just decided to out-suck all the bad teams in the league, when they also have the option to respond by making themselves even worse?

I seem to have missed that part.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I say "It was a pleasure to have you Johnny and good luck in your future endevaours except when playing the Flames." I then look to see if there were any rumours into the Devils looking at Tkachuk while asking Tkachuk if he wants to be the face of the franchise during the rebuild by signing an 8 year deal or I trade him at the draft, if possible.

I rebuild.

But apparently I can't in this hypothetical because you don't like that suggestion so therefore ownership doesn't allow it.

So all we can do is assume this is the best possible situation the Flames could be in?

I never said you can't rebuild in any situation.

If they move Tkachuk that's what I think they should do as well.

Not sure why you have to put words in my mouth to suggest you're being boxed in when you're not.

I would personally never sign off on your Gaudreau suggestion unless you were say 80% sure he wasn't going to sign in Calgary.

The value of moving him for next to nothing vs a 50% of retaining him for not bullying his agent in negotiations is too strong. Plus what bully tactic do you have in mind for Tkachuk and his agent at the draft?

You must have quite a presence in real life to scare so many people effectively.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Be consistent with TO at least, I'm a brick wall yelling at clouds!

But seriously here, put some time into dispelling instead of just virtue signalling about the team. Or are they right in off topic that you're incapable of doing this when confronted with opinions you don't like?

Our management team sucks at managing people.

I already put time into dispelling your "there is no plan" take. How much effort do you think dispelling every opinion you have is worth?

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Pepsi could sure accomplish great things if he used the effort he puts into cutting into people he disagrees with into his own life, or doing something of benefit to society. It's ironic coming from the captain of the virtue signaling squad.

Seems like a waste of energy, all just to be a nosy owl that passes judgments on an anonymous board.

That amount of bickering and slighting has to be exhausting. Gotta acknowledge the herculean effort it must take, day after day.

Feels a lot better than being a guy who spends his time lecturing others about what makes a "real man" and how important it is to put your career before the wife and kids to cover for his own insecurities about being alone, I would imagine.

For someone who made a big show of having me on ignore, you sure read a lot of my posts. Thanks for continuing to be a fan.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by blankall

Even then, until Kane is gone, it's going to be difficult to finish bottom 5. He's a gamer.

They had 28 wins last season with DeBrincat, Dach, Hagel (until deadline), Fleury (until deadline), de Haan, Strome and Kubalik. Good for 6th in the league in the standings.

They replaced them with Mrazek pretty much. If they don't finish bottom 5 because of Kane, they might as well just elect him to the HHOF during the season so we can have the second HHOF active player in league history after Lemieux.

Inversely New Jersey had 27 wins but should have a full season with Hughes, plus just aging of their young roster and top prospects potentially making the team (not sure if Luke Hughes has committed to Michigan for another season?)

Philadelphia had 25 wins but should get Couturier back after he missed pretty much the entire season or was playing injured. Ellis is a wildcard (but not looking great that he will be ready for the season start). They took steps to improve the overall roster, not sure if they did but they tried, still Couturier is their heart and soul best player, and having him back should diminish any loss due to Giroux. But keep in mind the team finished ahead of the Flames the season before, they are an up-and-down team and if Hart bounces back for the full year they are probably not finishing at the bottom.

Montreal has a lot of question marks, certainly around Price, but team looks better than last year. Of course would be hard to be worse.

Arizona (25 wins) and Seattle (27 wins), are likely the biggest "competitors" with Chicago in my opinion.

[PeteMoss]

We'd need to trade Markstrom. Chicago was reasonable when Fleury played for them. When they had a bunch of AHL guys in net - they sucked.

19-21-0-5 with Fleury
9-21-0-7 with the other guys.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Great now there are two of you.

Maybe one of you can answer how that works.

Give him a deadline. He ignores it as most agents would.

Then what?

Both sides are fully aware of when the actual deadline is (was). Why do two internet dudes think they'd be able to over power an agent of the top player available in free agency a week before the actual deadline that every one is aware of?

Do you guys read your own stuff?

Save your condescending drivel. Your position is, "Oh my god, what do you do when someone has you by the balls??? You let them squeeze even harder and just enjoy it!" No, you punch them in the nose so they let go and have something else to think about. The proper response is you assume some control and show you're willing to move the player and get whatever you can, because you're getting played to the point where you're going to have nothing to show for this unless you capitulate on every demand, and even then there is no guarantee. So you force the issue and be prepared to move the hell on.

Again, Treliving LOST when he couldn't get the contract across the goal line before the NTC kicked in. As soon as that happened the hockey team was screwed. At that point you're hoping the player has a crap year so you can get him under contract on a good deal, because the alternative is paying through the nose and giving other teams the potential to poach your player. Treliving ####ed up. Full stop. Again, a hard deadline that was ignored by Treliving got the team into this mess. This should have been dealt with a year earlier and not allowed to get to the 11th hour. When you're in negotiations you maintain control so you get a beneficial deal. If you lose control you have to manufacture a control point so you have some leverage. Treliving gave up the leverage and Gross never let up.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I never said you can't rebuild in any situation.

If they move Tkachuk that's what I think they should do as well.

Not sure why you have to put words in my mouth to suggest you're being boxed in when you're not.

I would personally never sign off on your Gaudreau suggestion unless you were say 80% sure he wasn't going to sign in Calgary.

The value of moving him for next to nothing vs a 50% of retaining him for not bullying his agent in negotiations is too strong. Plus what bully tactic do you have in mind for Tkachuk and his agent at the draft?

You must have quite a presence in real life to scare so many people effectively.

Why is it 50%? He just missed a deadline to sign knowing the team is now giving him blanche carte to talk to other teams. That should change the chance of signing him to nearly nothing.

And there is no bullying tactics with Tkachuk. I ask him if he wants to sign 8 years, if not, I ask which teams he would sign with (to increase his value in a trade) but ultimately I likely trade him for the most a team is willing to give. Caveat being like a Pacific team. This isn't scaring or bullying tactics, it's the exact opposite. It's asking him what he wants.

I don't get the personal attacks because I don't like the way the Flames handled the situation. Doesn't mean I'm a bully or scary. Jeeze.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Save your condescending drivel. Your position is, "Oh my god, what do you do when someone has you by the balls??? You let them squeeze even harder and just enjoy it!" No, you punch them in the nose so they let go and have something else to think about. The proper response is you assume some control and show you're willing to move the player and get whatever you can, because you're getting played to the point where you're going to have nothing to show for this unless you capitulate on every demand, and even then there is no guarantee. So you force the issue and be prepared to move the hell on.

Again, Treliving LOST when he couldn't get the contract across the goal line before the NTC kicked in. As soon as that happened the hockey team was screwed. At that point you're hoping the player has a crap year so you can get him under contract on a good deal, because the alternative is paying through the nose and giving other teams the potential to poach your player. Treliving ####ed up. Full stop. Again, a hard deadline that was ignored by Treliving got the team into this mess. This should have been dealt with a year earlier and not allowed to get to the 11th hour. When you're in negotiations you maintain control so you get a beneficial deal. If you lose control you have to manufacture a control point so you have some leverage. Treliving gave up the leverage and Gross never let up.

You called me "dense" yesterday so no you don't get the condescending card today at all. Has to be earned.

I'll put my history of dealing with people in a classy way against yours any day of the week.

Your bravado above is useless. The league has deadlines, everyone knows it and internet tough speak doesn't play in a world where the player has all the options.

How many assets walk that might have signed because GM Lanny puffed out his chest and talked in platitudes about ball squeezing and face punching?

The organization (owners) chose to not deal the player last summer to take a run with Sutter. Largely worked.