[Signing] Gaudreau to Columbus (7 x $9.75 million)

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So you only see two options:
What you are suggesting
What BT is doing.

That's it. Two options? No other possibilities.

I outlined earlier what I think they should do which is treat this year as a transitional one, and retain as much optionality cap wise for the next 2 summers.

"What would you do?"

What I suggested.

"You can't do that, now what?"

Cool.

Let's just turn this around and say for sure the ownership was cool with a rebuild, what would you have done at the previous draft?

And, again, even if we couldn't rebuild, the draft was important enough in my opinion that certainty for Gaudreau was required and I still would have set a deadline and stuck with it before hand. Or can I not do that? I need to wait until he leaves as UFA because Treliving did that?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“I’m not pretending to hold any universal truth other than the three baseless opinions I have that I am calling universal truths.”

Sorry didn’t realise I was speaking to a brick wall. Carry on as you were, building all that great evidence.

Be consistent with TO at least, I'm a brick wall yelling at clouds!

But seriously here, put some time into dispelling instead of just virtue signalling about the team. Or are they right in off topic that you're incapable of doing this when confronted with opinions you don't like?

Our management team sucks at managing people.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

This was a franchise altering off-season. Everything leading up to it should have hinged on whether Gaudreau was staying or leaving, especially the draft. You want to blame Gross because Treleving didn't send his best offer until after the draft which is when it was confirmed that Gaudreau wouldn't have stayed, okay, but I'll blame Treliving for doing it after the draft when he should have been able to know the direction of the team at that time.

Chicago took the bull by the horns and said #### it, we're rebuilding. They'll finish at the bottom, giving them best odds to draft Bedard or Michkov, and if they end up winning three more Cups we'll have the same people saying how they got lucky they sucked at the right time, but they saw a franchise altering draft and decided to make a move to try and capitalize on it. The Flames were paralyzed at the same time.

So my plan, which I indicated before the draft and again now, would have been making a deadline before the draft and sticking with it. Give him the best offer prior to the draft, say take it or we're rebuilding and follow through. Either you keep Gaudreau, and know for certain, and could even trade future assets at the draft for players who may have been available to try and go all-in, or you don't have Gaudreau but are giving yourself the best chance to draft his replacement in a franchise player like Bedard.

Instead the Flames aren't a contender nor rebuilding, hockey purgatory.

You just keep coming up with long winded avoidance answers of the same question.

Gross likes to do things at the last minute.

Given how clearly torn Gaudreau seemed to be that would certainly be the case around the draft two weeks ago.

How would you force an agent to give up their intentions so that you could be ahead of the curve like you suggest?

What would you do if Gross simply ignored your deadline at the draft that you so boldly suggested?

Still waiting for an answer ... round and around we go.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Wait - you think the Flames' trading partner is going to be top 3 in the draft? I thought you said it was Philly. The only possible one was NJ and they didn't need to move cap space. They also didn't want gaudreau enough it seems.

I was suggesting if Gaudreau refused to sign by the draft, the Flames would go into a rebuild like Chicago and draft top 3 with their own pick next year. I understand the confusion because the Flames never have their first round pick, but you are able to hold onto it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Yeah, I'm not pretending to hold any universal truth here other than that our management is poorly connected, on the outs with the rest of the league, and out of touch with the wishes of it's own players. They can say they have plans, but their plans are just pure fantasy and no different than the lot of us shooting the #### around the forum.



Man you would say that to Pepsi's ####### as it passed wind. Get a room.

You're not pretending to hold universal truth and then you sputter out three things that you can't possibly know to be true?

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You just keep coming up with long winded avoidance answers of the same question.

What is your question? How I would plan around Gaudreau?

I would set a deadline before the draft and stick with it. Internal deadlines happen.

Seriously, is that not your question?

If it was missed, I would adhere to it and plan the rebuild. I would even say, after the draft starts you have free range to talk to any team and if they want an 8 year deal they can come to me with an offer.

(I would also make my best offer before the draft/deadline and not last minute).

I don't think I'm avoiding any question, you just disagree with my answer. But that's the point of these discussions, no?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're not pretending to hold universal truth and then you sputter out three things that you can't possibly know to be true?

I laid out how I thought each was true in the following post.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

What is your question? How I would plan around Gaudreau?

I would set a deadline before the draft and stick with it. Internal deadlines happen.

Seriously, is that not your question?

If it was missed, I would adhere to it and plan the rebuild. I would even say, after the draft starts you have free range to talk to any team and if they want an 8 year deal they can come to me with an offer.

It's a plan ...

But one that quickly fails when the deadline comes and goes because the agent has seen that about 100 times in his career.

The real deadline is when the player goes to free agency and neither you nor Brad Treliving can change that.

And here is the question ... where it all started

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Treliving should have known by the draft to plan accordingly. Given him the best offer and if Gaudreau didn't sign, time to move on instead of giving him that offer with an hour left to free agency.

How?

[djsFlames]

Pepsi could sure accomplish great things if he used the effort he puts into cutting into people he disagrees with into his own life, or doing something of benefit to society. It's ironic coming from the captain of the virtue signaling squad.

Seems like a waste of energy, all just to be a nosy owl that passes judgments on an anonymous board.

That amount of bickering and slighting has to be exhausting. Gotta acknowledge the herculean effort it must take, day after day.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's a plan ...

But one that quickly fails when the deadline comes and goes because the agent has seen that about 100 times in his career.

The real deadline is when the player goes to free agency and neither you nor Brad Treliving can change that.

What? If I'm a GM in your situation (which apparently I need to be to disagree with the current GM's actions), I absolutely should be able to set my own deadline and stick with it.

He can't call my bluff if I'm not bluffing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I do need some cloud yelling time, that I will give you.

But the points stand:

1. Out of touch with players: Gaudreau's entire presentation was outlined around making him the focal point of stardom in the city. Making him a lifelong flame. Talking about eventual statues of him. It is pretty damn clear after the decision he made that none of these things were even remotely on his priority radar. So why was that the pitch? Out of touch. The Lucic story, out of touch. Monahan not going on IR until after the trade deadline? Super out of touch. This management team is not connected to the players on the roster, their wants or their needs.

2. Out of touch with league: Just look at the typical signings this management group makes on a year to year basis. It's always against the general league trend of player. That's why we wind up with Neals, or Brouwers, or Colemans.

3. Poorly connected in the league: this one is a hunch, but it doesnt seem like we're ever the prefered dancing partner anywhere. We're always the second choice. Treliving is "in" on everything, but never completes the deal. Why the hell is that the case? IMO it's lack of cohesion.

I have no clue what the presentation you're talking about is, but the fature part was $9.5 and then $10.5. The Lucic story? You mean the trade rumours and him being mad about it? Or something else? Lucic seems to love it here. And Monahan not on IR is something every team does.

As for league signings - Calgary got 2 Dmen "against the grain" last year and now they were pretty hot commodities it seems. And Coleman was widely regarded as a win - still is. Neal? That was a lack of due diligence all right, but it wasn't viewed as such by the media or the league it seems. Overall it strikes me that Treliving was getting players in consultation with his head coach. Who IMO reads the league trends pretty well.

Poorly connected - Treliving made one of the biggest trades prior to the TDL, though a little earlier than most. And a decent offseason trade for Vladar. Zadorov as well. I'm not sure who you think they missed on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

I was suggesting if Gaudreau refused to sign by the draft, the Flames would go into a rebuild like Chicago and draft top 3 with their own pick next year. I understand the confusion because the Flames never have their first round pick, but you are able to hold onto it.

"Never". As in three times in the last 22 years.

And even without Gaudreau, Calgary ain't finishing with a sure fire top 3. In fact, they probably have to win the lottery to get 3rd overall. You think they are getting by AZ, Buff, Seattle, Chicago, etc? Nah.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How?

How? How what? How do I know if Gaudreau signed by the draft? I look at the contract and see if the signature is there. I'm clearly missing something but I don't know what you're asking.

I mean, obviously I'm an advocate for a rebuild so if Gaudreau wasn't signed by the draft I have no problem going all in on the rebuild and letting Johnny walk. I think it was a better alternative to ending up where the Flames are at now which I think was the worst case scenario. My plan was to avoid the worst case scenario, not force Gaudreau to sign with the Flames somehow.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Gross likes to do things at the last minute.

Of course he does. It's how he leverages the control you grant him. You want to eliminate that control, change the deadline on him. Make it so YOU control the timeline or YOU control the numbers. Surrendering all control is how you get run over in negotiations, like being forced to agree to everything the player demands in a last second counter, and still having the player walk.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

How? How what? How do I know if Gaudreau signed by the draft? I look at the contract and see if the signature is there. I'm clearly missing something but I don't know what you're asking.

I mean, obviously I'm an advocate for a rebuild so if Gaudreau wasn't signed by the draft I have no problem going all in on the rebuild and letting Johnny walk. I think it was a better alternative to ending up where the Flames are at now which I think was the worst case scenario. My plan was to avoid the worst case scenario, not force Gaudreau to sign with the Flames somehow.

Well, that's what happened.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Of course he does. It's how he leverages the control you grant him. You want to eliminate that control, change the deadline on him. Make it so YOU control the timeline or YOU control the numbers. Surrendering all control is how you get run over in negotiations, like being forced to agree to everything the player demands in a last second counter, and still having the player walk.

Treliving won the previous round. I daresay Toronto and Boston did when Gross did that as well.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Found this segment interesting: https://open.spotify.com/episode/48fYvRjnyICF8jCl8waCtb

Think someone else already spoke about how both Steinberg and Francis made interesting comments about how the story isn't over and they heard some absolutely wild things over the last 72 hours.

Speculating on what they said, very much sounds like they had a verbal agreeance on a deal with the Flames and they were minutes away from announcing it.

If true in the appropriate context, that's absolutely wild.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

"Never". As in three times in the last 22 years.

And even without Gaudreau, Calgary ain't finishing with a sure fire top 3. In fact, they probably have to win the lottery to get 3rd overall. You think they are getting by AZ, Buff, Seattle, Chicago, etc? Nah.

I agree with you. The Flames aren't finishing top 3 (bottom 3...) without Gaudreau. Because they didn't embrace the rebuild like Chicago did leading up to the draft which I would have done.

Chicago got rid of anything that had a pulse outside of Kane, who has a NMC that may request a trade anyways, and Jones who they can keep for the rebuild. They're finishing bottom 3 because they got rid of DeBrincat, Dach, Hagel, Kubalik, Strome while letting de Haan walk. They took active steps to make sure they have the best chance at drafting Bedard.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, that's what happened.

Yep, he just missed the most important step...embracing the rebuild.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

Found this segment interesting: https://open.spotify.com/episode/48fYvRjnyICF8jCl8waCtb

Think someone else already spoke about how both Steinberg and Francis made interesting comments about how the story isn't over and they heard some absolutely wild things over the last 72 hours.

Speculating on what they said, very much sounds like they had a verbal agreeance on a deal with the Flames and they were minutes away from announcing it.

If true in the appropriate context, that's absolutely wild.

Really? Maybe he signed in Columbus cause the Flames were going to go after someone for tampering lol