Matthew Tkachuk & Johnny Gaudreau Signing Watch Thread

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

My point is that islander fans thought all the same things
And they ended up being fine
What is key is what happens next

The Islanders got great coaching under Trotz but no one thought they were a serious contender, even two years ago when they had a run. The lack of top end talent is obvious. I'm not sure comparing any team to them is a positive lol they're as mediocre as it gets and I think it will show this year now that Trotz is gone.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Saqe

The Islanders got great coaching under Trotz but no one thought they were a serious contender, even two years ago when they had a run. The lack of top end talent is obvious. I'm not sure comparing any team to them is a positive lol they're as mediocre as it gets and I think it will show this year now that Trotz is gone.

Prior to this season (where they started with a 13 game road trip), they went to consecutive Conference finals.....and that is "mediocre"?

Holy crap.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I agree his evaluation will be more nuanced than that.

It’s tough though. On the one hand I love that Treliving “went for it”, who knows, maybe it might’ve worked and we coulda been in the Final or with a Cup.

On the other hand, it’s easy to see why so many, including ownership, will view this as a gigantic cluster####. The Flames are in a very tough spot. Maybe the toughest I can recall actually as a fan. Can’t imagine the owners like it.

It’s not like the owners were not aware of the situation, for years, no less. No one should be surprised here, least of all the owners. I also would imagine the things Gaudreau had to say publicly about wanting to stay, his family and wife love it in Calgary were things he was saying to Treliving and ownership. So, why would Treliving be the one to wear this, solely? If the organization decides to scapegoat someone, then you would be right; this is a gigantic cluster ***.

The Blue Jackets only three years ago was worse. Same could be said for the Islanders and Tavares. Pietroangelo left St. Louis. Klingberg could leave Dallas, Forsberg could leave Nashville. It’s rare that a teams best player (or close to it) walks, but it’s not like it doesn’t happen.

[TOfan]

Nm

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Would it be any worse than the Islanders losing Tavares?

Yes, because we're Flames fans and this is the way.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Siderant

I don't get why the Flames never brought in Sanderson to play with Cassels. At the time the best duo in the league was Selanne and Kariya, guess who was next? He was a free agent and wasn't expensive either (of course they could have tried and he refused to sign).

I imagine they tried and couldn't compete financially and it's doubtful he wanted to play in Calgary anyway. Cassells wasn't exactly thrilled to be traded to the Flames as it was always known he was going to leave the minute he was a UFA. Those were tough times for the Flames.

[doozwimp]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Not really. Conroy was a middling player akin to Backlund. He was coming off an eight goal season when he left and was really a product of Iginla. He was a likeable guy, but not an impact player like Gaudreau. We lost one of the best interviews in the game in Conroy, but he was totally replaceable as a player.

Conroy had a pretty good season after he left with L.A. 78GP 22G 44A 66Pts.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Prior to this season (where they started with a 13 game road trip), they went to consecutive Conference finals.....and that is "mediocre"?

Holy crap.

Nobody was thinking they were a serious contender. They played great shutdown, playoff type hockey under Trotz but everyone saw how limited they were offensively. Great run for sure but I didn't see people saying they wanted to swap rosters with them. Major credit goes to Trotz.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I imagine they tried and couldn't compete financially and it's doubtful he wanted to play in Calgary anyway. Cassells wasn't exactly thrilled to be traded to the Flames as it was always known he was going to leave the minute he was a UFA. Those were tough times for the Flames.

I can't be sure of the time line, but the Sandersons have split time between Calgary and Whitefish, MT for many years. Not sure if they were to that point during Cassells time in Calgary, but its close. I'm not as convinced as you that he wouldn't have been interested

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I can't be sure of the time line, but the Sandersons have split time between Calgary and Whitefish, MT for many years. Not sure if they were to that point during Cassells time in Calgary, but its close. I'm not as convinced as you that he wouldn't have been interested

Well I'm pretty convinced the Flames wouldn't have been competitive on money so it's kind of a moot point.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Nobody was thinking they were a serious contender. They played great shutdown, playoff type hockey under Trotz but everyone saw how limited they were offensively. Great run for sure but I didn't see people saying they wanted to swap rosters with them. Major credit goes to Trotz.

Oh, is that how it's done? We determine the quality of a team not by wins and playoff success, but rather by how many people say they want to "swap rosters"? Good to know. It certainly seems easier to win the roster-swapping derby than eight playoff games.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Oh, is that how it's done? We determine the quality of a team not by wins and playoff success, but rather by how many people say they want to "swap rosters"? Good to know. It certainly seems easier to win the roster-swapping derby than eight playoff games.

No but it's an approximation. Nobody was picking them to win it all or thought they had the best roster, goes to show how far good coaching goes. I mean the Canadiens went to the finals too a year ago, teams do go on a run although the NYI were a much better team under Trotz. Now that he's gone, they'll likely go back to mediocrity which reflects their roster- mediocre.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Saqe

No but it's an approximation. Nobody was picking them to win it all or thought they had the best roster, goes to show how far good coaching goes. I mean the Canadiens went to the finals too a year ago, teams do go on a run although the NYI were a much better team under Trotz. Now that he's gone, they'll likely go back to mediocrity which reflects their roster- mediocre.

I think you don’t need to look too hard or too long to find people say Dominique Duscharm is not a good NHL coach.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Saqe

No but it's an approximation. Nobody was picking them to win it all or thought they had the best roster, goes to show how far good coaching goes. I mean the Canadiens went to the finals too a year ago, teams do go on a run although the NYI were a much better team under Trotz. Now that he's gone, they'll likely go back to mediocrity which reflects their roster- mediocre.

Nobody thought they were a contender WITH Tavares either, which is the point you’re missing.

They were better without Tavares than they were with him, that’s the point, that’s all. What you’re talking about is meaningless.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by Saqe

No but it's an approximation. Nobody was picking them to win it all or thought they had the best roster, goes to show how far good coaching goes. I mean the Canadiens went to the finals too a year ago, teams do go on a run although the NYI were a much better team under Trotz. Now that he's gone, they'll likely go back to mediocrity which reflects their roster- mediocre.

The Islanders went to back to back conference finals... I think that disqualifies it from just being a 'run'.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Saqe

The Islanders got great coaching under Trotz but no one thought they were a serious contender, even two years ago when they had a run. The lack of top end talent is obvious. I'm not sure comparing any team to them is a positive lol they're as mediocre as it gets and I think it will show this year now that Trotz is gone.

Anyone who thought that was obviously wrong.

G6 OTL 2-1 vs TBL in ECF
then
G7 L 1-0 vs TBL in ECF

Both years they were Tampa's toughest out. And Tampa might be the best team since Bowman's Red Wings.


I also love how CP uses coaching to excuse anything and everything - including very good teams.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Getting a young Regehr back in that trade softened the blow and is exactly what a GM in that situation should have done.

Agreed...but at the time and especially the following summer when Regehr broke both legs...that was hugely underwhelming. Over time, that transaction probably turned into one of the better ones in Flames history. Could be a valid lesson for now.


I go to my original stance on this. Lewis Gross is known for squeezing the team for maximum leverage (see Nylander and Gaudreau last contract). Unless Gaudreau intervenes, this deal gets done the day before free agency because that's the maximum day for leverage before the 8th year gets done. I am sure the flames imposed a draft deadline so that they could "explore options"...but everyone knows it's a fake sense of urgency. You are not trading Gaudreau for a 3rd so that someone else can try to sign him...

The complicated party in this is Tkachuk. Chucky is probably tying staying to a Gaudreau contract. If you are trading Chucky, you should do it at the draft from an asset management standpoint for anything but picks (players are cheapest and picks are most expensive). That is where you will get maximum value - but you can't really do it until you know what's going on with Johnny.

Looks to me like a very low leverage situation for the Flames on all fronts which is why we have seen the level of frustration in this thread that we have.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody thought they were a contender WITH Tavares either, which is the point you’re missing.

They were better without Tavares than they were with him, that’s the point, that’s all. What you’re talking about is meaningless.

Tavares hasn’t moved the needle for the Leafs so I think it comes down to the fact that he’s not a guy that elevates players around him. Gaudreau on the other hand clearly opens up things for his line mates. Losing him will likely impact the Flames far greater especially in the transition game.

[Vinny01]

Islanders were a team that got better after their best player walked for nothing so the same will happen for the Flames?

I think we saw a similar bump the Isles did when we lost Gio but the correlation is the coaching change. Islanders got Trotz the same summer they lost JT. Sutter had his first full season with the Flames after Gio left. The Flames are not all of a sudden going to get a coach bump like the Islanders got because they already got that last year with the full training camp with Big D.

Ultimately if Johnny leaves and is not replaced the Flames go from a team that looked to be a contender to likely a bubble team. Losing Johnny is a critical blow to winning a cup and could put this team in the spot the 07-12 Flames were in which is battling for the final playoff spots.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by tkflames

The complicated party in this is Tkachuk. Chucky is probably tying staying to a Gaudreau contract. If you are trading Chucky, you should do it at the draft from an asset management standpoint for anything but picks (players are cheapest and picks are most expensive). That is where you will get maximum value - but you can't really do it until you know what's going on with Johnny.

Looks to me like a very low leverage situation for the Flames on all fronts which is why we have seen the level of frustration in this thread that we have.

I think the Flames are more likely to keep Chucky without Gaudreau. I don't think Gaudreau weighs heavily in Chucky's decision - we hit his number or we don't.

If anything, I think he might be a bit less likely to go for a 1 year 'contract year' without Gaudreau than he would with him.

My personal prediction is Johnny leaves (70%) and they sign Chucky around 8x9.75M. Depending on how the season goes they may still move him before any trade protection kicks in. I also think this would warrant the best return compared to trading him with contract uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Tavares hasn’t moved the needle for the Leafs so I think it comes down to the fact that he’s not a guy that elevates players around him. Gaudreau on the other hand clearly opens up things for his line mates. Losing him will likely impact the Flames far greater especially in the transition game.

The flip side is the team may stop 'deferring' so much to him to make things happen.

I think the team will be worse in the regular season, but has a chance to be better in the playoffs - with more cap for better depth, and I just don't think Johnny's gamebreaking ability happens enough in the post-season compared to guys like Kucherov/MacKinnon/McDavid/Draisaitl.