[Signing] Flames sign Jacob Markstrom. (6 yrs, $6mil AAV)

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I would put it slightly differently. The data has borne out that a fresh arm of a slightly inferior pitcher is more effective than the tired arm of a superior pitcher.

And IMO that's the difference with hockey. I do not believe that fresher Vladar in this case is a better goalie than a slightly fatigued Markstrom.

And I don't believe that fatigue carries over from game to game all that much. If you want to use the baseball analogy, starters don't usually skip their spot in the rotation over a long season as long as they are healthy.

It's just a different set of facts entirely really compared to the repetitive motion of throwing a baseball. I would argue the mental aspect is really what needs to be focused on and how that is managed through practice etc.

960 has that Vancouver goaltending expert on weekly during the season and he said the Flames were playing him too much and Markstrom's best season with the Canucks was when his workload was reduced and Demko got more starts. Of course he's not going to split duties with Vladar but I feel he should play less. Darryl of course doesn't care what we think and I'm sure he's going to start him as much as he can next season but I hope the next coach does a better job managing his workload.

[kaddy]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Vasilevskiy is also 27, and already has two cups and a Vezina on his resume, to go with three more top three finishes.

You're comparing apples and caviar

Let's not forget the Conn Smythe.

I'm pretty sure all of us would take Vas if we could pick.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That would be a narrow minded way to manage a team.

The team, yes

The goalie that can’t handle the Oilers should not be on the team or you should have a backup plan

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Fewer and fewer over the last 20 years.

It used to be that you threw hard maybe every second or third pitch. And a good fastball was maybe 92 mph. And starters would throw 10 or more complete games a year.

Now they throw it hard basically every pitch. And 95 is common, with every team having multiple guys that can throw it 98-100. And complete games almost never happen.

They simply can't throw as many pitches.

Plus, the long term damage to arms is more understood now.

Hockey is the same in the sense that everything is done at full speed now. The game is faster, and thus harder on the body. Plus, they better understand the need to manage it.

And metrics have come out suggesting the third time through the order has pitchers getting feasted on.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

The team, yes

The goalie that can’t handle the Oilers should not be on the team or you should have a backup plan

Why the focus on the Oilers? They have faced them once in the playoffs in 30 years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Why the focus on the Oilers? They have faced them once in the playoffs in 30 years.

Yeah. I know there's been talk in the media that the BOA is back and this will happen again in the future but I'm not so sure. IMO the Knights will be a frontrunner for the division next season and the Kings are up and coming. Ducks look like a team on the rise. Flames could be worse next season as could the Oilers. It's year to year as far as I'm concerned and the Flames should never be making specific roster moves just to counter the Oilers as it could be another 30 years before they face again in the playoffs for all we know.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Why the focus on the Oilers? They have faced them once in the playoffs in 30 years.

Yeah, the chances they face them in any given year are pretty bad, and they really shouldn't focus on them - it's unproductive. Plus, I'm still convinced the Flames as a team played poorly in front of Markstrom - much worse than in any game where he put up decent numbers. He earned all his shutouts this year, but they were also great team efforts. Poor team checking, plus the lack of an effective Tanev (and Zadorov) led to some great Oiler chances as well as an incredible amount of puck luck. Markstrom was not great, but he was only really bad in one game (and they won that one).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Glenn Hall started 502 straight and even won a cup in the final year of that run...so yes, it is possible. He didn't even wear a helmet/mask for the entire streak...he's just a human after all so that should still be possible today?

Perhaps there is a reason goalies aren't playing quite as much these days? Like the people who make these decisions for a living have evolved their thinking for some reason...

We’re not talking about decades ago, we’re talking about post lockout here.

Even look at a guy like Andrei Vasilevskiy, typically plays 75% of his team’s games which is 60+ in an 82 game season on top of the 20+ playoffs back to back. He could be ready to three-peat here playing likely more than any goalie in the league over the last few seasons.

This whole tired talk is pure speculation in the first place. This conversation might not even apply to every goaltender either. What if some can handle it and some can’t.

This is ultimately just an impossibly difficult debate to have because we just don’t know and we’re never going to know. Even his teammates probably don’t know. The only who’s going to know is Jacob Markstrom.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

We’re not talking about decades ago, we’re talking about post lockout here.

Even look at a guy like Andrei Vasilevskiy, typically plays 75% of his team’s games which is 60+ in an 82 game season on top of the 20+ playoffs back to back. He could be ready to three-peat here playing likely more than any goalie in the league over the last few seasons.

This whole tired talk is pure speculation in the first place. This conversation might not even apply to every goaltender either. What if some can handle it and some can’t.

This is ultimately just an impossibly difficult debate to have because we just don’t know and we’re never going to know. Even his teammates probably don’t know. The only who’s going to know is Jacob Markstrom.

The last point is why you need a really good goalie coach even for a veteran. They are a better gauge than anyone except the player, who may not be honest with himself.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

We’re not talking about decades ago, we’re talking about post lockout here.

Even look at a guy like Andrei Vasilevskiy, typically plays 75% of his team’s games which is 60+ in an 82 game season on top of the 20+ playoffs back to back. He could be ready to three-peat here playing likely more than any goalie in the league over the last few seasons.

This whole tired talk is pure speculation in the first place. This conversation might not even apply to every goaltender either. What if some can handle it and some can’t.

This is ultimately just an impossibly difficult debate to have because we just don’t know and we’re never going to know. Even his teammates probably don’t know. The only who’s going to know is Jacob Markstrom.

You (or whoever I was replying to) was talking about going back further...

Anyways, 13 full seasons since the lockout. 12/13 of those goalies have played fewer than 62.

107 goalies have started 62+ in that span, meaning an average of about 8.25 per year, which translates to about 27% of all teams' #1 slots.

1/13= 7.7%


I always state there isn't necessarily a causal link; I think it has more to do with very good teams not needing to ride their guy so much.

It's interesting that the 1 exception is the guy who played on the only 8 seed to ever win the cup (IIRC), so they actually needed to play him that much. But then their path to the cup was actually a lighter workload than usual:
5, 4, 5, 6 = 20 playoff gp (probably the fewest needed in a long time...) - meaning a few extra days off between series...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And metrics have come out suggesting the third time through the order has pitchers getting feasted on.

Yes, but this is also an example of the dangers of reacting to a single statistic.

Third time through the order results in in worse numbers for the starter. Fact.

Problem is, going to the bullpen earlier results in more work for the bullpen, and thus worse numbers for them.

IMO, this is one of the most over-used and misguided stats in baseball. Cause and effect - there is no free lunch, just by pulling the starter earlier.

Also, 'feasted on' is a gross exageration.

Anyway, I think we are getting too far away from the main topic to be relevant anymore.

[Roof-Daddy]

If Markstrom ####s the bed against the oilers next season, Sutter better be quick to get Vladar in there to see if it changes things.

You can't have an unconfident sieve in net vs your biggest rivals.

An Markstrom, despite being a Vezina finalist, is a friggin sieve vs the oilers.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

If Markstrom ####s the bed against the oilers next season, Sutter better be quick to get Vladar in there to see if it changes things.

You can't have an unconfident sieve in net vs your biggest rivals.

An Markstrom, despite being a Vezina finalist, is a friggin sieve vs the oilers.

Maybe

How’s Mike Smith looking vs the Avs?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Maybe

How’s Mike Smith looking vs the Avs?

Hell, how'd he look against the Flames?

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Maybe

How’s Mike Smith looking vs the Avs?

But what does smith struggling vs the best team in the west have to do with Markstrom struggling regular ( 2 straight years) badly and playoffs vs Edmonton...

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Maybe

How’s Mike Smith looking vs the Avs?

I'm not understanding what that has to do with what I said.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'm not understanding what that has to do with what I said.

Well, depends on what you consider struggling

Like Sutter said, the Flames didn’t have elite game breaking talent and need to play by committee

Well, Markstrom was playing behind D
- either without Tanev, or with Tanev with dislocated shoulder
- with Zadorov having broken ribs
- Kylington with a shoulder injury

They were lined up against a team with top offensive players, the game was wide open and mistakes were made

Other than the first game and the soft OT winner (let’s ignore the cough up), did he really struggle, or did he play behind an outmatched team and get lit up by star talent?

Smith is facing the same kind of thing and getting the same kind of results, no?

[Flamesfan05]

Oilers is a flaw team. Anybody can beat them. The Kings almost beat team. A backup goalie shut them out.

Well, any team with a half decent goalie

Smith can’t stop ####

[Flamesfan05]

Oilers is a flaw team. Anybody can beat them. The Kings almost beat team. A backup goalie shut them out.

Well, any team with a half decent goalie

Smith can’t stop ####

[Jiri Hrdina]

I agree they are a flawed team but when you have two players producing at historic offensive levels, you win games.
McDavid is a complete x factor with his ability to score at will, at times.
To say "anybody can beat them" is choosing to willfully to ignoring reality.