[Signing] Flames sign Jacob Markstrom. (6 yrs, $6mil AAV)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Can't really hide from a .901 SV%. Maybe in 1986 you could get to the finals with a goaltender sporting that low of a save percentage but today you would be hard pressed to win a seven game series against the 16th seed in the playoffs.

Quick had a .904 and they were a shot away
Kuemper has a .813

Markstom played well below his level but their is a McDrai factor when facing the Oilers. You are playing the leagues top scorer in every single game vs. the regular season when you only do it a 4 times or whatever.

I made the same argument in the covid season, playing the Oilers/Leafs 18 of 56 games skewed goaltending and defensive stats.

[1qqaaz]

It would be interesting to see what kind of save percentage Vasilevsky or Shesterkin put up against the Oilers.

Of course, we won't see it, because the Oilers are going to lose this round.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I've been mulling this over for a couple days, and I've come to the conclusion that EDM is just in his head. Does it suck that the guy's kryptonite is literally our most hated rival? Of course it does, but that's literally why God invented Daniel Vladar.

I get the "dance with the one that brought you" thing, but the guy with the Vezina-finalist season averaged 4 goals against per game to EDM in the regular season, and then literally looked like he couldn't stop a beachball in a 9-6 win in Game 1. After posting a 1.45 GAA in 7 games against Dallas, too. I'm just saying, I think Sutter needs to take some heat for not calling a spade a spade and going with Vladar in Game 2.

Obviously Markstrom needs to figure out his EDM thing, but I just feel like the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs is not the time for that.

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

To the posters above, not gonna reply to each for time/effort purposes.

I'll just say that nobody really knows the answer, so it's all just speculation. It's my opinion that he wasn't overly tired. Just looking at his past gives you an indication that he's a workhorse. In Vancouver, he faced a massive workload and it wasn't even just the amount of games played, it was the volume and difficulty of shots he had to deal with most nights. So comparing his with time with the Canucks, he's got it a lot easier here in terms of energy spent.

Also, looking at the past, goaltenders in the past who won Cups routinely played 60-70+ regular seasons games to go along with 20+ playoff games. So not sure why right now would be any different. We're talking about elite athletes here, not senior citizens.

Lastly, the weak goals he allowed looked more so a lack of execution than fatigue in my opinion. It's not like he needed to push hard side to side or any extreme movements here. We're talking about a lot of straight shots that he just whiffed on.

Bolded simply isn't true unless you go pretty far back. The two highest since Brodeur are: Quick started 69 (4099 mins) in 2012 and Fleury 61 (3641) in 2009.

Brodeur 73 in 2003, 72 in 2000
Hasek 65 in 2002 (3873 mins)
Osgood 64 in 1998 (3710)

Roy and Belfour were low 60s
Vernon 33 in 1997
Roy 38 in 1996


Any argument that includes "Brodeur/Hasek/Bower/etc. did it without any problem" probably isn't a good argument.


Going back even further you have to look at minutes since starts aren't specified...Richter appeared in 68 in 1994 but played about 94 fewer minutes than Osgood's 64 start season. Roy was another 110 mins lower in his 62 appearances in '93. Barrasso appeared in 48 then 57 for PIT.


I'm pretty sure Markstrom's 3696 reg season mins would have been the 2nd most since Brodeur...though Vasi played 3761 this year and may actually take that distinction.

[Enoch Root]

The position has changed a lot over time. Goalies go up and down a lot more than they used to. And average shot velocity is way higher than it used to be.

Expecting goalies to be able to play as much as they did 20 years ago is akin to expecting pitchers to pitch as many innings as they used to.

The game evolves. And everything happens faster now.

[DeluxeMoustache]

It’s a fool’s errand to try to correlate goalie starts against Stanley Cup wins.

This season, 5 goalies started over 60, only 3 were on playoff teams. Saros started 67, Markstrom and Vasilevskiy had an equal 63 starts. Saros didn’t play in the playoffs as he was injured. His team was curb stomped and whether he played or not, they weren’t beating the Avs.

So 2 out of 16 starting goalies played over 60

We saw what happened to Marky.

Vasilevskiy, with equal number of starts, remains. He is in the final 4 playing with Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Hedman etc.

Either Vasilevskiy wins the cup or a guy who started less than 60 will win

Do we really think that there is a conclusion to be drawn about goalie fatigue from this year’s data point?

* Maybe Markstrom just needs to talk to Vasilevskiy’s conditioning coach?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

It’s a fool’s errand to try to correlate goalie starts against Stanley Cup wins.

This season, 5 goalies started over 60, only 3 were on playoff teams. Saros started 67, Markstrom and Vasilevskiy had an equal 63 starts. Saros didn’t play in the playoffs as he was injured. His team was curb stomped and whether he played or not, they weren’t beating the Avs.

So 2 out of 16 starting goalies played over 60

We saw what happened to Marky.

Vasilevskiy, with equal number of starts, remains. He is in the final 4 playing with Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Hedman etc.

Either Vasilevskiy wins the cup or a guy who started less than 60 will win

Do we really think that there is a conclusion to be drawn about goalie fatigue from this year’s data point?

* Maybe Markstrom just needs to talk to Vasilevskiy’s conditioning coach?

Vasilevskiy is also 27, and already has two cups and a Vezina on his resume, to go with three more top three finishes.

You're comparing apples and caviar

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The position has changed a lot over time. Goalies go up and down a lot more than they used to. And average shot velocity is way higher than it used to be.

Expecting goalies to be able to play as much as they did 20 years ago is akin to expecting pitchers to pitch as many innings as they used to.

The game evolves. And everything happens faster now.

Off topic I know, but I don't know the answer to this.

[Hockey_Ninja]

I truly hope that if there’s a BOA playoff round again next year that Marky shuts the door and the boys get revenge

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Off topic I know, but I don't know the answer to this.

Fewer and fewer over the last 20 years.

It used to be that you threw hard maybe every second or third pitch. And a good fastball was maybe 92 mph. And starters would throw 10 or more complete games a year.

Now they throw it hard basically every pitch. And 95 is common, with every team having multiple guys that can throw it 98-100. And complete games almost never happen.

They simply can't throw as many pitches.

Plus, the long term damage to arms is more understood now.

Hockey is the same in the sense that everything is done at full speed now. The game is faster, and thus harder on the body. Plus, they better understand the need to manage it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Vasilevskiy is also 27, and already has two cups and a Vezina on his resume, to go with three more top three finishes.

You're comparing apples and caviar

Sure. This supports my point

Marky and Vasilevskiy are in the same bucket

There are not enough data points for this to be statistically significant, to begin with, and then each data point (goalie who played more or less than 60) comes with an entirely unique set of circumstances

Like I say, it’s a fool’s errand imo

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I truly hope that if there’s a BOA playoff round again next year that Marky shuts the door and the boys get revenge

I don't want any more of them until 97 leaves the team. He's a diver and an embellisher and the league clearly will call games in his favour. No thanks to that. Flames have the deck stacked against them. Sure, let's get out revenge when they no longer have the league's darling on their roster.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

...Going back even further you have to look at minutes since starts aren't specified...Richter appeared in 68 in 1994 but played about 94 fewer minutes than Osgood's 64 start season. Roy was another 110 mins lower in his 62 appearances in '93. Barrasso appeared in 48 then 57 for PIT.


I'm pretty sure Markstrom's 3696 reg season mins would have been the 2nd most since Brodeur...though Vasi played 3761 this year and may actually take that distinction.

Well, no. There were actually four goalies this season who played more total minutes in the regular season than did Markstrom. In fact, his 3696 mins this season registers only 95th on the list of goaltender single-season minutes since 2005–06.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sure. This supports my point

Marky and Vasilevskiy are in the same bucket

There are not enough data points for this to be statistically significant, to begin with, and then each data point (goalie who played more or less than 60) comes with an entirely unique set of circumstances

Like I say, it’s a fool’s errand imo

Well you can draw a pretty clear line in the sand around 62 games.

Last 9 cups are under.
16 of last 17 are under.

To be fair I should probably correct for shortened seasons...but meh. The best argument against is that these days there are typically only 5-10 guys playing >61 in a given year, so the odds are like 15-33% that one would win.

In the 2000s and early 2010s there were typically 10-15 playing that number...so the odds should've been 33-50%.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Bolded simply isn't true unless you go pretty far back. The two highest since Brodeur are: Quick started 69 (4099 mins) in 2012 and Fleury 61 (3641) in 2009.

Brodeur 73 in 2003, 72 in 2000
Hasek 65 in 2002 (3873 mins)
Osgood 64 in 1998 (3710)

Roy and Belfour were low 60s
Vernon 33 in 1997
Roy 38 in 1996


Any argument that includes "Brodeur/Hasek/Bower/etc. did it without any problem" probably isn't a good argument.


Going back even further you have to look at minutes since starts aren't specified...Richter appeared in 68 in 1994 but played about 94 fewer minutes than Osgood's 64 start season. Roy was another 110 mins lower in his 62 appearances in '93. Barrasso appeared in 48 then 57 for PIT.


I'm pretty sure Markstrom's 3696 reg season mins would have been the 2nd most since Brodeur...though Vasi played 3761 this year and may actually take that distinction.

What difference does it make how far back it happened? These are still humans playing the sport. My point was that it’s possible.

Also, goaltenders today just don’t play as many games as they use to, so finding instances of goalies who play 60-70 games will be more difficult in general. Irregardless, in the history of the game, there have been plenty of big workload goalies who have won Cups/appearances.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Can't really hide from a .901 SV%. Maybe in 1986 you could get to the finals with a goaltender sporting that low of a save percentage but today you would be hard pressed to win a seven game series against the 16th seed in the playoffs.

I think Flames fans would’ve taken .901 against the Oilers, truth is, he was far worse. In 5 games, his sv% in that series was .852 sv%, truly an un-winnable save%. I know the Oilers are a dangerous offensive team, but not even close enough for a $6M Vezina trophy candidate.

[Flamesfan05]

You can be great but if you choke and can’t beat the Oilers then you should not be a Flames

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

What difference does it make how far back it happened? These are still humans playing the sport. My point was that it’s possible.

Also, goaltenders today just don’t play as many games as they use to, so finding instances of goalies who play 60-70 games will be more difficult in general. Irregardless, in the history of the game, there have been plenty of big workload goalies who have won Cups/appearances.

Glenn Hall started 502 straight and even won a cup in the final year of that run...so yes, it is possible. He didn't even wear a helmet/mask for the entire streak...he's just a human after all so that should still be possible today?

Perhaps there is a reason goalies aren't playing quite as much these days? Like the people who make these decisions for a living have evolved their thinking for some reason...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

You can be great but if you choke and can’t beat the Oilers then you should not be a Flames

That would be a narrow minded way to manage a team.

[activeStick]

Kevin Woodley is on the FAN and he says the criticism of Markstrom is a bit over the top, saying Markstrom was bad in Game 1 but only about a goal below expected from there on. He points to the chances given up as the bigger issue, which I agree with.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Fewer and fewer over the last 20 years.

It used to be that you threw hard maybe every second or third pitch. And a good fastball was maybe 92 mph. And starters would throw 10 or more complete games a year.

Now they throw it hard basically every pitch. And 95 is common, with every team having multiple guys that can throw it 98-100. And complete games almost never happen.

They simply can't throw as many pitches.

Plus, the long term damage to arms is more understood now.

Hockey is the same in the sense that everything is done at full speed now. The game is faster, and thus harder on the body. Plus, they better understand the need to manage it.

I would put it slightly differently. The data has borne out that a fresh arm of a slightly inferior pitcher is more effective than the tired arm of a superior pitcher.

And IMO that's the difference with hockey. I do not believe that fresher Vladar in this case is a better goalie than a slightly fatigued Markstrom.

And I don't believe that fatigue carries over from game to game all that much. If you want to use the baseball analogy, starters don't usually skip their spot in the rotation over a long season as long as they are healthy.

It's just a different set of facts entirely really compared to the repetitive motion of throwing a baseball. I would argue the mental aspect is really what needs to be focused on and how that is managed through practice etc.