UPD: Lehner to have season ending surgery

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Sorry but here you're just mistaken. Every team has black aces they bring in every year for the playoffs. You think the Flames would have been "cap compliant" in 2019 when they had a roster of 40 players against the Avs for the playoffs?

How many of those 40 players were legitimately NHL calibre players? Both quantity and quality matters here.

Is your issue that these extra players above the 23 didn’t need to be exposed to waivers? Because measuring the cap hit of 28 players seems unreasonable, unless you do it for other teams.

Well yes, they didn't have to go on waivers, and also the cap relief provided by LTIR gave Vegas a way of keeping them without counting them against the cap. When a player clears waivers and is sent to the minors, in most cases there is a buried player penalty that counts against the cap. As far as I can tell, there is no such penalty when a player is kept on LTIR.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Guess I’m not that bent out of shape. If Monahan was healthy Flames would be entering the playoffs at about $85 million I believe. And that’s with 23 players.

Knights most expensive 12 forwards, 6 defensemen, 2 goalies: $84.74M total
Flames most expensive 12 forwards (including Monahan), 6 defensemen, 2 goalies: $74.74M total

Look at that, exactly a Jack Eichel difference between the two clubs!

Also the "Why?" was asking why they were less than honest about return dates like you suggested. There is no rule that a player on LTIR must be activated when healthy. The CBA is explicit that it's not the case.

Cool so Monahan can stay on LTIR all next season, practice with the team all season, be activated for game 1 of the 2023 playoffs and help the team. No cap hit, no rules broken. Sounds good.

[dino7c]

lol @ talking about the Flames doing it with Monahan next season so same same:

Vegas currently has 7 players on LTIR...that is the NHL record for players on LTIR at a given time.

Unless I am missing someone that means they have had 11 players on LTIR this season...also a record

Odd the capped out team that added a 10M player would have the "worst" injury luck in NHL history

Have the Flames had 11 players on LTIR combined ever? let alone one season


They thought they could rest guys and get them all at 100% for the playoffs...this division was a joke to them, hopefully it fails. They broke no rules as they are written but there needs to be changes IMO.

I could move to Cayman Islands for a year and sell my Bitcoin tax free and while totally legal it would be kinda scammy and a loophole the government will likely soon sew up

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I said Stone would make a miraculous recovery the second they had cap space... revolving door LTIR...

Does Mark Stone look like he has recovered to you? He has no points in five games since returning from injury. I think the only reason he has been playing is because VGK is that desperate. There is no way he has been healthy this whole time.

[dino7c]

alright you guys win...11 guys on LTIR is totally normal, 7 at a time too

NHL record for LTIR shorty after saying "guys get injured" in response to questions about adding a 10M player when already at the cap lol

[meh]

Too bad.
Hate to see injuries. Doesn’t matter what team.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Does Mark Stone look like he has recovered to you? He has no points in five games since returning from injury. I think the only reason he has been playing is because VGK is that desperate. There is no way he has been healthy this whole time.

Again... No one is saying these guys aren't injured. Just that they would be able to play if they had the cap space. Stone is the prime example. He's hurt, but he's also playing. Once the playoffs come, these hurt guys will play. If Vegas was sitting pretty for a playoff spot, stone would probably still not be playing. But clearly given he is playing now, he could be playing.

[PeteMoss]

That said...now that they are likely to end up in the other division for the playoffs...let them work all the loopholes they want to make Colorado sweat in round 1

[Wastedyouth]

Dont like seeing any player hurt, do like seeing karma hit the most soulless team in the NHL hard.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

From the moment they acquired Jack Eichel, it was clear what they were hoping to do. Stockpile talent, use LTIR to stay technically cap compliant, then go guns blazing in the playoffs.

Sure they tried to unload Dadonov, but they would have acquired John Moore in the process, so the cap savings there wouldn't have been as large as you make them out to be. And no they don't have to get rid of those 5-6 players at around $1M each... they get to keep them on their roster. That's kind of the point - they have a massive stockpile of players, and once the playoffs start, they get to conveniently pick & choose which ones they want to put into the lineup. This gives them an advantage over other teams, even if their playoff lineup would happen to come in at $81.5M or less.

But, it wouldn't anyway. If you take their 12 most expensive forwards, 6 most expensive D men, and 2 goalies, you get $84.74M. This may not seem like being over the cap by much, but when all other teams are under the cap, and margins in the playoffs are so small... it can be the difference between going all the way, vs being out in round 1.

I agree with you for the most part about Vegas stockpiling talent. However I'm surprised Florida doesn't get the same treatment! The Cats today's cap hit is $87.485M (all active players LTIR, and dead cap space), that doesn't take into account $4.1375M retained for Giroux, and $1.75M for Chiarot, that adds up to $93M+. Even if you subtract Domi's retained salary of $1.325M as a favor to the Canes, you're still left with $92M. The Knights have the same cap hit of $92M.

I know that Ekblad was injured at an unfortunate timing, and if he's not back for the playoffs the whole point is moot. However, we can't be sure that all of the Knights' players would be ready for playoffs either. I think we're just more accepting of that injury because it was visible after an awkward collision.

My point is that the 50% retention loophole is kind of accepted. Meanwhile the LTIR is frowned upon mostly because of Tampa winning last year. I'd rather both loopholes were closed.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I agree with you for the most part about Vegas stockpiling talent. However I'm surprised Florida doesn't get the same treatment! The Cats today's cap hit is $87.485M (all active players LTIR, and dead cap space), that doesn't take into account $4.1375M retained for Giroux, and $1.75M for Chiarot, that adds up to $93M+. Even if you subtract Domi's retained salary of $1.325M as a favor to the Canes, you're still left with $92M. The Knights have the same cap hit of $92M.

I know that Ekblad was injured at an unfortunate timing, and if he's not back for the playoffs the whole point is moot. However, we can't be sure that all of the Knights' players would be ready for playoffs either. I think we're just more accepting of that injury because it was visible after an awkward collision.

My point is that the 50% retention loophole is kind of accepted. Meanwhile the LTIR is frowned upon mostly because of Tampa winning last year. I'd rather both loopholes were closed.

The retained salary of players is not a loophole. Teams trade assets for this, teams get assets to retain player’s salary.

LTIR is a trickier one. We don’t know the health status of players. It is up to doctors.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The retained salary of players is not a loophole. Teams trade assets for this, teams get assets to retain player’s salary.

LTIR is a trickier one. We don’t know the health status of players. It is up to doctors.

I just see it as a loophole because you can get a player like Giroux at the deadline who's an $8M player for a project cap spending of $848k. Now the 50% retention would only double that amount, so it's not that much of a difference.

I guess I just really enjoyed the idea that all the teams are on an even playing field after the lockout. Right now it seems as though there are a lot of ways for rich teams to get better rosters, despite giving away future assets.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I just see it as a loophole because you can get a player like Giroux at the deadline who's an $8M player for a project cap spending of $848k. Now the 50% retention would only double that amount, so it's not that much of a difference.

I guess I just really enjoyed the idea that all the teams are on an even playing field after the lockout. Right now it seems as though there are a lot of ways for rich teams to get better rosters, despite giving away future assets.

Personally, I like that teams can acquire players at the deadline - if you think you're a contender and you want to trade futures for a run, go for it.

As long as all teams are able to do it when they want to.

And that's where I don't agree with your post. The cap makes for a level playing field, which is what it was designed for. Are there a few teams that are still tight to a budget, yes. But that's their fault.

For at least 25, and probably more like 30 of the teams, they are able to 'go for it' in years where they want to. So for me, this rule is working.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Personally, I like that teams can acquire players at the deadline - if you think you're a contender and you want to trade futures for a run, go for it.

As long as all teams are able to do it when they want to.

And that's where I don't agree with your post. The cap makes for a level playing field, which is what it was designed for. Are there a few teams that are still tight to a budget, yes. But that's their fault.

For at least 25, and probably more like 30 of the teams, they are able to 'go for it' in years where they want to. So for me, this rule is working.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, and sorry for hijacking the Lehner thread. It does make the trade deadline more exciting, and also gives teams the ability to bring in players for twice the cap hit at the deadline, so I don't mind your take at all.

I just thought the salary retention rule was intended to give an opportunity to players that weren't quite living up to their contracts. It kind of hits the same idea that there's no daily/game cap ceiling in the playoffs, the same thing keeping healthy players on LTIR exploits. Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, so we just differ in opinion in what defines a loophole/level playing field.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

lol @ talking about the Flames doing it with Monahan next season so same same:

Vegas currently has 7 players on LTIR...that is the NHL record for players on LTIR at a given time.

Unless I am missing someone that means they have had 11 players on LTIR this season...also a record

Odd the capped out team that added a 10M player would have the "worst" injury luck in NHL history

In another one of your many misconceptions of the cap, CBA, and LTIR, you have conflated having long term injuries with the usage of the LTIR. The last time this question was asked it was pointed out that (at the time) the Coyotes had at least six players with long term injuries eligible for the LTIR. But they had 0 players on the LTIR.

The LTIR is only beneficial if the replacement player for the injured player would otherwise have the team go over the cap. There is, however, a major disadvantage of using the LTIR should a player miraculously recover. In an ironic twist, Kesler is not on the LTIR because there was never a benefit for the Ducks to put them there.

In most circumstances an injury to Bischoff would not result in him being placed on the LTIR, Vegas cap strapped themselves so they had to do it.

But we're now left with this. Vegas either knew in November when they acquired Eichel that Stone would be injured in February in order to activate him, they then would fool the entire league by pretending to trade Dadonov at the deadline knowing he was ineligible to be traded for no other reason to keep the perception that they would trying to get compliant despite not breaking any CBA rules anyways or they acquired Eichel thinking that when he was healthy the would make the required moves to activate him. Occam's razor clearly favours the former, but I just don't know why they didn't use that crystal balls of theirs to look beyond February.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Again... No one is saying these guys aren't injured. Just that they would be able to play if they had the cap space. Stone is the prime example. He's hurt, but he's also playing. Once the playoffs come, these hurt guys will play. If Vegas was sitting pretty for a playoff spot, stone would probably still not be playing. But clearly given he is playing now, he could be playing.

Just think for a minute what sort of precedent this sets: are you comfortable with the notion that a player as clearly injured as Stone SHOULD ALWAYS be playing? Because I sure as hell am not. This kind of thinking moves us in the direction of a very dangerous mindset that severely jeopardises the long-term health of NHL players.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Just think for a minute what sort of precedent this sets: are you comfortable with the notion that a player as clearly injured as Stone SHOULD ALWAYS be playing? Because I sure as hell am not. This kind of thinking moves us in the direction of a very dangerous mindset that severely jeopardises the long-term health of NHL players.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

The issue will never be solved by second guessing putting players on LTIR. It will only be solved by capping who can play while those players are on. The on ice product shouldn’t exceed the cap. Seems simple to me.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The issue will never be solved by second guessing putting players on LTIR. It will only be solved by capping who can play while those players are on. The on ice product shouldn’t exceed the cap. Seems simple to me.

It could even lead to an interesting scenario where a team adds with a major player down, and then has to look at cap as well as fit in the playoffs. Could see healthy normally dressed players in the press box. I can’t think of any reason this doesn’t make sense so somebody hit me with it if I’ve missed something obvious.

Trying to determine “health” in a physical sport where everybody plays hurt in the playoffs sounds impossible. So cap the dressed roster in the playoffs. I wouldn’t think it was unfair if Tampa had to pick between Kucherov or Stamkos each night (as a simple off the top example).

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

But we're now left with this. Vegas either knew in November when they acquired Eichel that Stone would be injured in February in order to activate him, they then would fool the entire league by pretending to trade Dadonov at the deadline knowing he was ineligible to be traded for no other reason to keep the perception that they would trying to get compliant despite not breaking any CBA rules anyways or they acquired Eichel thinking that when he was healthy the would make the required moves to activate him. Occam's razor clearly favours the former, but I just don't know why they didn't use that crystal balls of theirs to look beyond February.

lol, I don't think anyone is accusing them of knowing ahead of time that Stone would suffer a major injury in February. The bolded is obviously the case, but the Stone injury did, nevertheless, help them relieve their cap situation when Eichel was ready to play. Turned out to be a double-edged sword, though, as it contributed to them falling short of the playoffs. However, if they had made it in (still mathematically can, btw), it would have worked massively in their favor.

Hence the flaw in the current system - it can actually be good fortune for deep teams when one of their high-priced players suffers a long term injury prior to the trade deadline. Gives them a bunch of extra cap space to stack their team further, then have everyone available once the playoffs start.

Is it outlandish for me to think that Vegas would have kept Stone & Martinez on LTIR until game 1 of the playoffs, and not try to trade Dadanov, if they were sitting comfortably in a playoff spot?

Is it outlandish of me to think they tried to move Dadanov purely because they were worried about falling short of the playoffs, and wanted Stone & Martinez back into the lineup as quickly as possible?

It is really that outlandish of me to think Vegas was trying to game the system when they acquired Eichel, knowing they wouldn't be able to fit their starting lineup (let alone their whole roster) under the cap when everyone was healthy?

[dino7c]

So is this guy actually done? Coach says he will be dressed tomorrow

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Trading a healthy player for a guy on LTIR would have gained them cap space no matter how many times you say it wouldn't have....duh, why do you think they wanted to do it? It was 100% a cap move. They would have gotten rid of Dadonov's entire cap hit.

They got rid of the cap hit by trading Dadonov. They gained nothing by acquiring Kesler. Taking on the remainder of his contract was of no value to anyone; it was a pure expense. But it was Anaheim's price for doing business.

Are you seriously going to say that trading away a perfectly useful player for cap reasons is a form of circumvention? It is to laugh.

Except… They didn't trade Dadonov, because they were too incompetent to know that Anaheim was on his NTC. But I'm supposed to believe that these guys are masterminds who had this incredible conspiracy worked out to the last detail from the beginning? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

And "six doctors couldn't fix his back" Stone was playing as soon as they were desperate and found some cap space.

Stone was playing when he was able to play. You predicted that would be game 1 of the playoffs. You were wrong. Admit it.

As for ‘finding some cap space’, you put players on LTIR when you need the cap space, not when the players get injured. Many people have pointed this out to you, but you are either too stupid or too stubborn to retain this information.

Martinez practiced for 3 month on LTIR with a couple weeks off in covid protocol.

Martinez had concussion symptoms. Many people have pointed this out to you, but you are either too stupid or too stubborn to retain this information.

I seem to detect a pattern here.

I hear Iraq is looking for a new information minister

Up yours, too.