UPD: Lehner to have season ending surgery

[dino7c]

Exactly my point, it's easy to keep guys on LTIR, despite posts to the contrary

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Exactly my point, it's easy to keep guys on LTIR, despite posts to the contrary

No that's not at all your point.

Originally Posted by dino7c

I said Stone would make a miraculous recovery the second they had cap space... revolving door LTIR

They made cap space when he was healthy to go, April 12, 2022. They didn't need it before but they had several players injured so they put them on LTIR in compliance with the CBA.

And if they did not have that ability (i.e. the players weren't hurt), Stone would not need to make a miraculous recovery, he would simply not be able to play.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

No that's not at all your point.



They made cap space when he was healthy to go, April 12, 2022. They didn't need it before but they had several players injured so they put them on LTIR in compliance with the CBA.

And if they did not have that ability (i.e. the players weren't hurt), Stone would not need to make a miraculous recovery, he would simply not be able to play.

Your original post was quoting my take on Martinez not Stone. Martinez was 100% kept on LTIR because of cap space.

Another poster said you couldn't keep a player on LTIR

They tried to use LTIR to ice a lineup well over the cap for the playoffs...looks like it might backfire but they still tried it.

Their own coach can't even keep track of the injuries

[OptimalTates]

So you concede that Stone was activated when he became healthy? That there was no conspiracy for him to fake an injury until cap space was available?

Then why bring up the "miraculous" recovery?

Acquiring Kesler didn't do anything for them (removing Dadonov would). There was no need to fake injuries by Martinez or Stone. Yet you've implied all of that I believe.

[Mathgod]

No one is alleging that the Knights faked any injuries.

It's more that they were less than honest about the true timelines of the recoveries from the legit injuries they had. The recoveries seemed to line up a bit too conveniently for the ends they were trying to achieve.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

So you concede that Stone was activated when he became healthy? That there was no conspiracy for him to fake an injury until cap space was available?

Then why bring up the "miraculous" recovery?

Acquiring Kesler didn't do anything for them (removing Dadonov would). There was no need to fake injuries by Martinez or Stone. Yet you've implied all of that I believe.

Oh god, trading a healthy player for a guy on LTIR clears cap space...so yes the Kesler/Dadonov trade was to clear cap space....they obviously had a plan for the space.

The plan was 100% to rest Stone for the playoffs IMO...their desperate situation and other injuries changed that. They still have multiple guys on LTIR.

I am willing to bet $100 Reilly Smith plays game one if they make it

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

No one is alleging that the Knights faked any injuries.

It's more that they were less than honest about the true timelines of the recoveries from the legit injuries they had.

Why?

They could announce Reilly Smith was healthy today and the league would say "okay, but you can't activate him until the playoffs or you make room." There was no need to lie about recovery times.

And their current cap hit total is 92M. That's a 28 man roster cap hit.

If they had got rid of Dadonov as they wanted, we're down to 87M and a 27 man roster.

Remove 5 players making a million on average and you got a "cap" team. The problem was that Dadonov's trade was voided and that's causing issues with removing players from LTIR.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

No one is alleging that the Knights faked any injuries.

It's more that they were less than honest about the true timelines of the recoveries from the legit injuries they had. The recoveries seemed to line up a bit to conveniently for the ends they were trying to achieve.

I have said 100 times guys have nagging injuries, guys not 100%.

It's the shuffling guys in and out of LTIR that has been kinda shady. How many teams have had 8+ guys on LTIR?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Why?

They could announce Reilly Smith was healthy today and the league would say "okay, but you can't activate him until the playoffs or you make room." There was no need to lie about recovery times.

And their current cap hit total is 92M. That's a 28 man roster cap hit.

If they had got rid of Dadonov as they wanted, we're down to 87M and a 27 man roster.

Remove 5 players making a million on average and you got a "cap" team. The problem was that Dadonov's trade was voided and that's causing issues with removing players from LTIR.

Lol remove 5 players and trade a guy with a NTC and they are fine. Exactly, they didn't even try to be cap compliant

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Oh god, trading a healthy player for a guy on LTIR clears cap space...so yes the Kesler/Dadonov trade was to clear cap space....they obviously had a plan for the space.

Trading Dadonov made the space. Not acquiring Kesler. Again, no different for the Knights if Kesler was included in the trade or not. Anaheim probably saved some money.

Originally Posted by dino7c

I am willing to bet $100 Reilly Smith plays game one if they make it

And? He could have been healthy a month ago, announced to the public, and they would still be following the CBA. If healthy, not having Smith as they fight for the playoffs is a detriment for them because the Dadonov trade didn't go through.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Lol remove 5 players and trade a guy with a NTC and they are fine. Exactly, they didn't even try to be cap compliant

5 guys on a 28 man roster. I.E. the replacement players.

They tried to trade Dadonov, it was all but a done deal and they would have been cap compliant (and they still are...) but they were stupid. Being stupid is now preventing them from activating healthy LTIR players, which we should be laughing at. Not making conspiracies that Stone was healthy when he clearly wasn't.

[OptimalTates]

Also you guys realize you can go into the last game of the seasons without using LTIR with a 166M cap compliant roster, right?

Stay at cap floor until the trade deadline, load up then.

[dino7c]

I think some don't understand what loophole means

I never said they should lose draft picks or be kicked out of the league...I'm saying they are full of ####, glad it's blowing up in their faces (probably)

And I hope the league fixes the loophole

They didn't break any rules as they are written but are making the cap a bit of a joke. We lost an entire season for this ####ing cap....let's make teams follow it.

A team shouldn't be allowed to trade for a player during the season that puts you 10M over the cap.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by dino7c

A team shouldn't be allowed to trade for a player during the season that puts you 10M over the cap.

God forbid, but if Monahan were to start the season on LTIR would you be opposed if the Flames exceeded a cap hit of 82M next year? Or would you find it distasteful like the Knights are doing?

It's not really a loophole when the it's the entire point of the LTIR. An LTIR that already closed the loophole by requiring teams get cap compliant before activating players and a stipulation that the league can review with a neutral doctor if players are put on there when not injured.

Bringing up the Dadonov trade as though cap dump trades don't happen regularly by the continued insistence that they acquired a player on LTIR (which meant nothing to the Knights whether Kesler was included or not). I mean there's far bigger cap dump trades to make note of, Marleau for example. The conspiracy that Stone was healthy but bidding his time faking his injury when there was no need for him to fake it. And the hyperbole that they wanted a 100M roster for the playoffs. Those are what prompted the discussion.

But in reality, if it was up to Vegas, if the LTIR shenanigans didn't happen, if players stayed healthy, after Eichel was ready to go they would have had this 23 man roster:

Kolesar
Stephenson
Roy
Marchessault
Karlsson
Janmark
Carrier
Smith
Amadio
Howden
Pacioretty
Stone
Eichel
Patrick
Pietrangelo
Theodore
McNabb
Coghlan
Whitecloud
Hague
Martinez
Lehner
Thompson

Only moves of note are Dadonov traded, Brossoit moved.

82M combined cap hit, 23 man roster that would have been cap compliant because of the banked cap prior to acquiring Eichel. Instead they acquired Eichel then ran into additional injury problems, then when they tried to fix it they got shot down by the league in the Dadonov trade. There was never this 100M roster plan for the playoffs, they wanted to get compliant, they wanted to get everyone playing, so that they wouldn't have a player like Smith (if healthy) sitting when they are about to miss the playoffs. It was that their plan didn't work that they have this inflated payroll and allegedly healthy Smith sitting on the sidelines watching his team. Which is hilarious and we should laugh at them but some of the conspiracies just show a lack of understanding of the CBA and cap.

[Chi-Town Hustler]

I hope Smith gets sympathy groin pains from this.

[dino7c]

They planned to enter the playoffs with a 90M+ roster let's be real...let's hope they don't enter the playoffs at all.

Calgary putting one player who had surgery on LTIR would be different

Anyway, believe what you want...no sense in arguing

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by OptimalTates

Why?

From the moment they acquired Jack Eichel, it was clear what they were hoping to do. Stockpile talent, use LTIR to stay technically cap compliant, then go guns blazing in the playoffs.

Sure they tried to unload Dadonov, but they would have acquired John Moore in the process, so the cap savings there wouldn't have been as large as you make them out to be. And no they don't have to get rid of those 5-6 players at around $1M each... they get to keep them on their roster. That's kind of the point - they have a massive stockpile of players, and once the playoffs start, they get to conveniently pick & choose which ones they want to put into the lineup. This gives them an advantage over other teams, even if their playoff lineup would happen to come in at $81.5M or less.

But, it wouldn't anyway. If you take their 12 most expensive forwards, 6 most expensive D men, and 2 goalies, you get $84.74M. This may not seem like being over the cap by much, but when all other teams are under the cap, and margins in the playoffs are so small... it can be the difference between going all the way, vs being out in round 1.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

From the moment they acquired Jack Eichel, it was clear what they were hoping to do. Stockpile talent, use LTIR to stay technically cap compliant, then go guns blazing in the playoffs.

They were hoping to lose their best player for two months? Well glad that worked out for them. Here I am thinking it would have been smarter to try and make cap-space when Eichel was ready to play.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Sure they tried to unload Dadonov, but they would have acquired John Moore in the process, so the cap savings there wouldn't have been as large as you make them out to be.

There's two separate arguments being made now. In one it's that their roster for the playoffs would be 100M+! But if Kesler and Moore aren't playing, is it really a "over the cap" playoff roster? Meh, then so is the Lightning with Seabrook...and Flames with Monahan. In either case, trade or not, they were and still are cap compliant. However, because of being unable to make that trade Smith (if actually healthy) is not on the active roster to remain compliant.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

And no they don't have to get rid of those 5-6 players at around $1M each... they get to keep them on their roster. That's kind of the point - they have a massive stockpile of players, and once the playoffs start, they get to conveniently pick & choose which ones they want to put into the lineup. This gives them an advantage over other teams, even if their playoff lineup would happen to come in at $81.5M or less.

Sorry but here you're just mistaken. Every team has black aces they bring in every year for the playoffs. You think the Flames would have been "cap compliant" in 2019 when they had a roster of 40 players against the Avs for the playoffs?

Originally Posted by Mathgod

But, it wouldn't anyway. If you take their 12 most expensive forwards, 6 most expensive D men, and 2 goalies, you get $84.74M. This may not seem like being over the cap by much, but when all other teams are under the cap, and margins in the playoffs are so small... it can be the difference between going all the way, vs being out in round 1.

Yes, now remove Dadonov's 5M. Let's put that username to the test

They got Eichel, they knew he was injured, they knew he was on LTIR, they knew they would have to make moves to activate him. That was never in doubt. The original plan was almost certainly to move Dadonov given what happened at the deadline. But then they had a parade of injuries but it wasn't like losing Stone, and Smith, and Martinez, and Pacioretty was beneficial to them. Of course they played the hand they were dealt and used the injuries to prolong the cap-dump trade until last minute (which backfired lol). But do you think Treliving would have not used Monahan's LTIR space to his 'advantage' at the deadline if he was shutdown just a couple weeks earlier? If not, fire him now.

"How convenient that Stone came back the same day that they put three players on LTIR. What a faker"
"Oh, those players were eligible for LTIR weeks before? Guess he's a method actor."

"Look at them abuse the LTIR with Kesler."
"Oh, whether or not they had Kesler included in the trade made absolutely no impact on their cap situation."

"How convenient that Lehner is out for the season probably right in time for Smith to be activated."
"Oh, they can't put him on LTIR"
"Oh, he may not even be injured."

Also the "Why?" was asking why they were less than honest about return dates like you suggested. There is no rule that a player on LTIR must be activated when healthy. The CBA is explicit that it's not the case.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

From the moment they acquired Jack Eichel, it was clear what they were hoping to do. Stockpile talent, use LTIR to stay technically cap compliant, then go guns blazing in the playoffs.

Sure they tried to unload Dadonov, but they would have acquired John Moore in the process, so the cap savings there wouldn't have been as large as you make them out to be. And no they don't have to get rid of those 5-6 players at around $1M each... they get to keep them on their roster. That's kind of the point - they have a massive stockpile of players, and once the playoffs start, they get to conveniently pick & choose which ones they want to put into the lineup. This gives them an advantage over other teams, even if their playoff lineup would happen to come in at $81.5M or less.

But, it wouldn't anyway. If you take their 12 most expensive forwards, 6 most expensive D men, and 2 goalies, you get $84.74M. This may not seem like being over the cap by much, but when all other teams are under the cap, and margins in the playoffs are so small... it can be the difference between going all the way, vs being out in round 1.

Is your issue that these extra players above the 23 didn’t need to be exposed to waivers? Because measuring the cap hit of 28 players seems unreasonable, unless you do it for other teams.

Guess I’m not that bent out of shape. If Monahan was healthy Flames would be entering the playoffs at about $85 million I believe. And that’s with 23 players.

I certainly hope the Flames leverage these rules to manage the cap next year with a very expensive player coming off second major surgery.

[Mathgod]

Just because things didn't work out the way they wanted them to, doesn't mean they didn't have a plan to try to have an advantage come playoff time (attempting to somewhat mimic what Tampa did last year). Fact is, they acquired Eichel at a time when their team would have been WAY over the cap if they had everyone healthy. They knew what they were doing and why they were doing it.

The Knights' brass tried to outsmart the rest of the league, but it blew up in their faces. Looks good on them.

You keep going on and on about the Dadonov trade like it somehow disproves everything I've said. It doesn't. The fact is Dadonov is still a Golden Knight. There's no way of knowing whether or not the trade was botched purely on accident, or what people there knew and when they knew it.

No team has done as much LTIR/cap juggling this season as the Knights have. That's a fact.