Russia invades Ukraine

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by you&me

Don't take this the wrong way, but is your stance on this heavily influenced by being in China? Your defensiveness of Russian citizens is coming across a bit like you're talking your book, i.e. you might be in a similar position if things go sideways with the nation of Taiwan ().

I'm not in China anymore. Haven't been for nearly three years, but I can't update my location on CP anymore without adding a whole bunch of other information to my profile that I don't feel like I should have to add because the site's requirements seem to have changed in the years since I joined.

Anyways, it's not about that for me. I'm strongly opposed to nationalism, which is part in parcel with people's identities being tied to a nation state. I'm opposed to nationalism in Russia, in China, and in Canada. These sentiments contribute to conditions of violence, to which I'm fully opposed regardless of who the aggressor is.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Putin still has tremendous support within Russia. You see those interviews with random people, and they support Russian actions. Minor actions like banning athletes only serves to shed a little light on the situation, and perhaps change a few minds. Their is no benefit to the rest of the world to allow Russian athletes at their events. The drawback is you give a chance for Russian pride. The world can deny that, and should. People are getting raped and killed daily, and if an athlete banning changes even one Russian mind, makes one person look into the reasons a little deeper, it's succeeded.

I get this line of thinking, but the end result is opposite of what you want to achieve. When the fight gets real, people have to chose sides. And by showing all average Russians that Russians are pariahs in the west, you leave them with exactly one option: support Putin. There are many Russians who hate this war, hate Putin and absolutely are with the west on this issue. By showing them that they have no place with the west, you just guide them to the opposite camp. You show them that merely because they are Russians, they have no chance to be a part of the west and their place is in that cold isolated, banned and damned land called Russia. In such situation they might as well give up whatever pro-western views and opinions they had and join the Putin's pack, as it seems to be the only one that is accepting them in.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not in China anymore. Haven't been for nearly three years, but I can't update my location on CP anymore without adding a whole bunch of other information to my profile that I don't feel like I should have to add because the site's requirements seem to have changed in the years since I joined.

Anyways, it's not about that for me. I'm strongly opposed to nationalism, which is part in parcel with people's identities being tied to a nation state. I'm opposed to nationalism in Russia, in China, and in Canada. These sentiments contribute to conditions of violence, to which I'm fully opposed regardless of who the aggressor is.

You keep beating this drum. Who is coming across to you as a nationalist? Like, should I keep saying how I find vegans annoying? Where's the relevance and what is your point with not liking nationalists?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I get this line of thinking, but the end result is opposite of what you want to achieve. When the fight gets real, people have to chose sides. And by showing all average Russians that Russians are pariahs in the west, you leave them with exactly one option: support Putin. There are many Russians who hate this war, hate Putin and absolutely are with the west on this issue. By showing them that they have no place with the west, you just guide them to the opposite camp. You show them that merely because they are Russians, they have no chance to be a part of the west and their place is in that cold isolated, banned and damned land called Russia. In such situation they might as well give up whatever pro-western views and opinions they had and join the Putin's pack, as it seems to be the only one that is accepting them in.

So ban Russian athletes from international play...Putin wins.

Take the fight to Russia...Putin wins.

Can we do anything to help that you wouldn't see as helping Russia? How about fata that.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Holy cow.

I, too, hope for a world where we all sing Kumbaya, but, like, I live in reality.

If you think the symbolic gestures by westerners will have any tangible effect on the outcome of the war, then no, you’re not living in reality.

I get that people wish that these sorts of gestures could stop the killing of civilians. That Russians who have been going along with Putin’s regime will turn against it because professional athletes can’t compete in international events. But that’s a fantasy more detached from reality than anything JohnyB has posted.

It’s a bad idea not because it’s mean or unfair. It’s a bad idea because it’s useless.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

In the land of make believe, yes, we agree with each other on that.

In reality, it's absurdly and obviously impossible. Different groups have different needs and wants that will always run into conflict with each other. What is good for me may be detrimental to you.

And to take it back to the current situation, I'm less concerned about getting along with Russia and more concerned with pulling literally every lever we can to stop this war.

The fact that an ideal may not be perfectly achievable doesn't mean it's not a practical good. We may not be able to achieve positive relations with everyone in our lives, but that doesn't mean we should give up on achieving that as fully as we can.

I don't think we even disagree substantially on pulling levers to stop war, though we do disagree on the cost-benefit and efficacy of some levers. Look at Pointman's post about how a move like banning athletes is actually interpreted in Russia and what the outcome is. That's not a net positive for ending war.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, I get that we're really far away from your reality, but are you saying that the country your country attacked shouldn't be allowed to fight you back?

Like, isn't that the obvious risk you take as a country when you invade somebody is them fighting back?

Of course it is an obvious risk that Ukranians fight back. Once they do, it would literally threat my family. From that point I will obviously have no choice but to do whatever it takes to keep my family safe. I will no longer have luxury of sitting on the couch and moralizing about how wrong Russia is (and they are very wrong). I, along with many Russians, will have to switch from "oh Lord what a HORRIBLE crimes our country is doing" to "oh boy, they are coming after us, we have to fight to survive" mode.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The fact that an ideal may not be perfectly achievable doesn't mean it's not a practical good. We may not be able to achieve positive relations with everyone in our lives, but that doesn't mean we should give up on achieving that as fully as we can.

I don't think we even disagree substantially on pulling levers to stop war, though we do disagree on the cost-benefit and efficacy of some levers. Look at Pointman's post about how a move like banning athletes is actually interpreted in Russia and what the outcome is. That's not a net positive for ending war.

lol. In the mind of Pointman, even defending yourself against Russia is interpreted as a slight against Russia that will drive more people into Putin's arms. Hardly the impartial guy I'd point to for support.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Pointman

No they don't. There's no such thing as a right to kill people. If Ukranian bombs will start to fall on the head of my two years old, do you expect me to say "Too bad, my son, it's a well-deserved punishment, our troops shouldn't have committed all those crimes". Of course not. It will become a fight for survival. Any concepts of "rightfulness" and "fairness" would be irrelevant at that point.

Russian became fair game Feb 24/22.

You should feel lucky the Ukrainians exercised restraint from 2014 onward.

I'm sorry while I don't want to see your two year old injured or dead, there is plenty of death and destruction occurring in Ukraine. Why not share it around.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You keep beating this drum. Who is coming across to you as a nationalist? Like, should I keep saying how I find vegans annoying? Where's the relevance and what is your point with not liking nationalists?

I'm opposed to nation state membership as a dominant factor in personal identity. I am clarifying that my views on this debate aren't related to how this conflict may connect with the perceived interests of the Chinese government and I'm opposing the idea that Russian people should be subject to punishment or regarded as less worthy of our empathy purely on the basis of their nationality.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Of course it is an obvious risk that Ukranians fight back. Once they do, it would literally threat my family. From that point I will obviously have no choice but to do whatever it takes to keep my family safe. I will no longer have luxury of sitting on the couch and moralizing about how wrong Russia is (and they are very wrong). I, along with many Russians, will have to switch from "oh Lord what a HORRIBLE crimes our country is doing" to "oh boy, they are coming after us, we have to fight to survive" mode.

Or leave. I understand that isn't an easy choice, but it is an option.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Sliver

So ban Russian athletes from international play...Putin wins.

Take the fight to Russia...Putin wins.

Can we do anything to help that you wouldn't see as helping Russia? How about fata that.

When USA took down USSR, they didn't ban Russians all out. They were smarter than that. In fact, they were showing Russians a better world (Summit series, Canada Cup and all), giving Nobel prizes to Russian writers such as Pasternak and Brodsky, bringing western music to USSR and such.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Or leave. I understand that isn't an easy choice, but it is an option.

That's exactly what I am doing, but waiting time to get Israel citizenship is over a year now. And most have no chance to get a residency in another country.

[Hack&Lube]

Let's say you are working for a foreign company. One day, Canada does something that foreign country doesn't like and they decide to fire all dirty Canadians and prevent them from working in their field. This happens just because you are Canadian and from no fault of your own and despite what your personal beliefs may be. Nationalism is a slippery slope into racism. The 20th century has been rife with no Mexicans allowed, no Irish wanted, etc. type stuff.

Zadorov has been anti-Putin on social media in the past, even before all of these things. He has also tipped his hat to fans wearing Ukrainian colors at games. Should we ban him from the NHL just because he is a Russian?

I agree that we should ban athletes that REPRESENT Russia at international events (already banned from the Olympias, Paralympics, and World Cups). But, we shouldn't look to ban athletes (who are just doing a job like others) who are simply working in foreign countries in their sport.

[burn_this_city]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1517074978688090112

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Russian became fair game Feb 24/22.

You should feel lucky the Ukrainians exercised restraint from 2014 onward.

I'm sorry while I don't want to see your two year old injured or dead, there is plenty of death and destruction occurring in Ukraine. Why not share it around.

What do you mean by saying that Russians are fair game now? How do you feel about killing Zadorov, for example? How is Zadorov any different than me?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol. In the mind of Pointman, even defending yourself against Russia is interpreted as a slight against Russia that will drive more people into Putin's arms. Hardly the impartial guy I'd point to for support.

It's a perspective from inside Russia. It's extremely relevant to the topic of whether or not measures like banning athletes increase or decrease support for the war or support for Putin inside Russia.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm opposed to nation state membership as a dominant factor in personal identity. I am clarifying that my views on this debate aren't related to how this conflict may connect with the perceived interests of the Chinese government and I'm opposing the idea that Russian people should be subject to punishment or regarded as less worthy of our empathy purely on the basis of their nationality.

Boy you sure are concerned about our empathy toward Russians when they're the ones fataing slaughtering Ukrainians. JFC

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Pointman

That's exactly what I am doing, but waiting time to get Israel citizenship is over a year now. And most have no chance to get a residency in another country.

I think that is great, both for your personal safety and the larger message.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Pointman

When USA took down USSR, they didn't ban Russians all out. They were smarter than that. In fact, they were showing Russians a better world (Summit series, Canada Cup and all), giving Nobel prizes to Russian writers such as Pasternak and Brodsky, bringing western music to USSR and such.

Is it a fact the USA took down USSR? Genuine question.