MF YYC Politics - there, I mega did it

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I hate whataboutism arguments, but anyone annoyed by the dumb $100k against Quebec idea should be at least 300 times more outraged by the continued existence of PEAS - the Provincial Embezzlement Agency, Sasquatch!

The annoyance wasn’t about the money, it was about the mayor dedicating time and energy to an issue totally outside the remit of Calgary governance. Traditionally, voters want their elected municipal governments to focus on practical, local matters, and leave the ideological grandstanding to provincial and federal politicians.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I'm willing to cut this council some slack just because we knew ahead of time that this was going to be a very tough stretch for the city. Not a coincidence a lot of the former council left when they did

That's fair. But much of the stuff with Gondek (ie Quebec nonsense, inability to use Twitter like an adult) are self inflicted issues.

Since this is CP: you can be playing the top team in the league, but everyone will still be upset at a defenseman if he takes lazy offensive zone penalties and scores an own goal.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Speaking of Nenshi, what is doing these days for employment or do we know what he’s going to do? I imagine he has opportunities.

Meeting with party suitors? Practicing his conversational french more? Strategizing?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Speaking of Nenshi, what is doing these days for employment or do we know what he’s going to do? I imagine he has opportunities.

Taking a well-deserved break, I hope.

[calgarygeologist]

I probably heard about this previously and I just don't remember but some communities in Calgary will have private garbage collection now instead of the city service. What seems odd to me is that this is a 7 year trial program. 7 years seems like a really long term for a trial program.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...box=1649025729

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I probably heard about this previously and I just don't remember but some communities in Calgary will have private garbage collection now instead of the city service. What seems odd to me is that this is a 7 year trial program. 7 years seems like a really long term for a trial program.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...box=1649025729

I don't understand the point of privatizing essential public sector jobs other than making a few people more wealthy. Pay less to a private company to pick up garbage, residents receive a worst quality of service due to said company cutting corners to make a profit, residents complain to the city who end up having to send their own trucks back out to resolve issues, and more money gets spent than the original setup. Why the hell would the council approve this?

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I probably heard about this previously and I just don't remember but some communities in Calgary will have private garbage collection now instead of the city service. What seems odd to me is that this is a 7 year trial program. 7 years seems like a really long term for a trial program.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...box=1649025729

I understood it is a seven year trial because no waste disposal company had sufficient (spare) fleet capacity/availability to undertake the pilot for a shorter period.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I don't understand the point of privatizing essential public sector jobs other than making a few people more wealthy. Pay less to a private company to pick up garbage, residents receive a worst quality of service due to said company cutting corners to make a profit, residents complain to the city who end up having to send their own trucks back out to resolve issues, and more money gets spent than the original setup. Why the hell would the council approve this?

Pure speculation but pensions might be becoming an issue for municipalities. DB pensions are expensive, there's a reason many private (non government) businesses have moved away from them.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

Pure speculation but pensions might be becoming an issue for municipalities. DB pensions are expensive, there's a reason many private (non government) businesses have moved away from them.

Lobbying from private industry is more likely to be the reason. It’s not as if the policy makers are giving up their DB pensions.

[WhiteTiger]

Question:

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I don't understand the point of privatizing essential public sector jobs

Answer:

other than making a few people more wealthy.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I don't understand the point of privatizing essential public sector jobs other than making a few people more wealthy. Pay less to a private company to pick up garbage, residents receive a worst quality of service due to said company cutting corners to make a profit, residents complain to the city who end up having to send their own trucks back out to resolve issues, and more money gets spent than the original setup. Why the hell would the council approve this?

It's only been a failure anywhere else that's tried it, but hell, why don't we try it too!

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by btimbit

It's only been a failure anywhere else that's tried it, but hell, why don't we try it too!

*Citation needed.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

*Citation needed.

It's been studied a lot over the decades, but I'll just copy and paste my post from the last time this got brought up

What normally happens is it's cheaper the first few years to make everyone happy. Then companies start increasing their prices (if allowed in the contract, usually a set % each year if at all) and lowering their service levels the absolute most they can get away with (Which is a lot). Then before you know it you're paying more for less, and have no control over addressing it without very expensive lawsuits. Manage to get out of the contract? Companies already know what the other guy was getting paid, they aren't giving you an honest bid. Plus what company has several hundred trucks just sitting around hoping a city calls them? Rinse and repeat. By then you can't go back because you sold off all your own equipment and can't do it yourself without the same massive start up cost that prevented more companies even bidding in the first place. Simply isn't going to happen within a city budget.

Governments like the idea because it gives them a very simple flat rate fee, one less massive headache to worry about, in theory. It makes sense for small cities and towns, but not big cities.

Edit: Plus, privitization usually means the bulk of the money leaves the province

It's just a pilot at least, maybe the whole thing flops and we go back to how it was. Trouble is, companies aren't dumb, they're on their best behaviour during a pilot

Here's one study, I'll just copy and paste part of the conclusion

The idea of private waste collection may sound appealing to some. But in
reality, it has proven to have limited success and, given the amount of monitoring associated with trying to make private waste collection work for the
public good, it may be more of a headache than it’s worth. In general, local governments are primarily seeking to reduce their costs by contracting
out service delivery. In residential waste collection specifically, these sav-
ings are far from guaranteed. Decades of empirical research from jurisdictions across North America and Europe show no clear connection between
private waste collection and cost reductions. Moreover, cost savings appear
to be increasingly less likely.
The two main reasons why private waste collection fails to reduce municipal costs: (1) a widespread lack of competition, and (2) large and often
unaccounted for transaction costs. Research shows, for instance, a broad
trend in the waste collection market toward private oligopolies, where markets are heavily dominated by just a few firms.

https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/...;s%20Worth.pdf



What I personally like is the city offers limited service (Like every other week) to save a bit of $, then if you personally need more garbage collection then that you can pay for another private service to come on those off weeks. I know that exists in Edmonton and it's like an extra $25 a month.

[The Fisher Account]

Imagine the audacity of paying a Calgarian a living wage instead of privatizing that job, outsourcing the work to the lowest bidder and sending the profits out of the province.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Imagine the audacity of paying a Calgarian a living wage instead of privatizing that job, outsourcing the work to the lowest bidder and sending the profits out of the province.

Screw those entitled city workers, my dad's cousin's son's dog used to be a city worker and he said they do nothing all day! Meanwhile these foreign company owners are struggling to get by, some even had to downsize their yachts!

[Slava]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

Imagine the audacity of paying a Calgarian a living wage instead of privatizing that job, outsourcing the work to the lowest bidder and sending the profits out of the province.

Surely there is a gap between a poverty level wage and a living wage with a DB pension though? I mean there is nothing wrong with a decent wage, benefits and even a DC pension for a non-skilled worker?

While we don't see a lot of examples in this thread about municipalities that have tried and failed to use private waste collection, we all know of entities with a lot of DB pension exposure that have suffered through the years.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by btimbit

It's only been a failure anywhere else that's tried it, but hell, why don't we try it too!

In Calgary most, maybe all, multi-family residence and business garbage collection is done by private companies isn't it? I don't know a lot about that stuff but is it successful or a failure?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

In Calgary most, maybe all, multi-family residence and business garbage collection is done by private companies isn't it? I don't know a lot of about that stuff but is it successful or a failure?

I live in a condo building and up until about a year and a half ago, our dumpster was done by the city and most of the others that share our alley were as well.

GFL gave us a great deal that beat the city, so we switched.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

In Calgary most, maybe all, multi-family residence and business garbage collection is done by private companies isn't it? I don't know a lot of about that stuff but is it successful or a failure?

The city will do multi family garbage but not compost or recycle.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Slava

Surely there is a gap between a poverty level wage and a living wage with a DB pension though? I mean there is nothing wrong with a decent wage, benefits and even a DC pension for a non-skilled worker?

I’m sure it’s easy for you to say there’s nothing wrong with it when you’re not the one having to retire on it. There’s little to no guarantees with a DC plan.

While we don't see a lot of examples in this thread about municipalities that have tried and failed to use private waste collection, we all know of entities with a lot of DB pension exposure that have suffered through the years.

Outsourcing or switching to a DC plan will increase the burden by leaving the plan with less employees paying into it, increasing the likelihood of insolvency.