Putin's spokesman clarified that "denazification" means removing combat units that share nazi ideology. Apparently "denazification" does not imply overthrowing Zelenskiy, which is good news. It also appear to be easily achieve in negotiations. Just claim that some of the destroyed ukranian troops were Nazis and consider this objective accomplished.
God, such a pathetic explanation (by Putin's spokesman, not you Pointman). Still, that's an off ramp to take if Putin chooses to do so.
If all they need to declare a "win" is to make up some lies so they can pull out, they would have done it by now. They are not shy about making #### up.
HW - I truly hope these are your darkest hours. I am crushed to hear this has broken your wife, there are no words. These are the realities that are not discussed in the classrooms. I know not what the future holds, in the meantime be the person she needs you to be.
Sending love.
__________________
Shameless self promotion
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If you read the thread, the posts are all historical and no one is an apologist for Russia. No one is saying Putin is right or Russia is valid in their attack, they're just warning that this might happen in the future, and that Russian policy and political class was such that Ukraine was a bright-line and if you crossed it, this might happen.
They point out there were alternative paths historically that some view that might have avoided bloodshed. The fact you have people involved in the decisions regretting the choices made, is quite interesting.
This is a fair discussion point, but its also a fair question to ask - why do all these countries want to join Nato. They could easily join up with Russia in some sort of alliance and have the same level of protection.
I'd assume two reasons - 1) Russia's economic power is tiny compared to the US, Germany, UK and other NATO countries. 2) Russia is constantly threatening to invade these countries and/or install puppet governments. I'd say Russia pushed these countries to want to join NATO with their behaviour.
There was no threat to Russia before they invaded Ukraine. Ukraine wasn't in NATO or the EU or even close to joining either despite their wishes. They invented a reason because the country was moving out of their sphere of influence.
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Very interesting thread for foreign policy buffs looking at bi-partisan commentary on some of the missteps that led us to where we are.
Dont get me wrong, Putin is bat-#### insane, but many strategists on both sides had some very grave predictions on this very scenario occurring given some of the NATO moves in the late 1990s and then further posturing since then. Interesting read seeing the predictions and regrets from those directly involved in the decisions.
Will just quickly update on my wife and her family's situation in Kharkov Oblast.
Spoiler!
Another tough night, but she managed to get the most sleep she's gotten since this ordeal started; 4 hours. I'm tired too since I respond immediately to any text she sends me, regardless of the hour. But I will never take sleep for granted again and not complain about my own lack of sleep.
She said today some food arrived and they started handing it out to some residence in the village. Still, they have a food supply of their own and didn't want to leave their apartment in case it was some kind of ambush, trick, or some way to deport people. They don't want to show their faces to anybody. Crazy to even think that way, but that is their mentality now; trust nothing going on around them. Still, the place has been cut off from food for a week and trick or not, I'm glad some people got something to eat.
Overall her ability to mentally withstand this is dwindling. As we were speaking she started freaking out, as dozens of helicopters started flying overhead. She's on edge 24/7. She's seen the photos and videos in her home city of Kharkov. Heartbreaking for her. Begged her to stop watching the news, photos, and whatnot as it is only torture. I know it's easier said than done. The big square in the center that got bombed yesterday was where he had our first date and is both our favorite places when we visit Kharkov. #### this war so much.
Tried to distract her by sending her various emails, posts and messages from my friends and family offering their prayers and support for her. Not sure if it works, but if for even a split second she feels hope, it's worth it. Her and her mom fully agree that this is no way to live and they would rather be dead then live a life like this. It's scary to think like that and breaks my heart when she said it so bluntly. I try to talk to her about our future together, remind her of her ambitions, moving to Canada to start a family. But all she thought about today was not living. Having said that, she has never been suicidal and I don't believe she would act on it. Just...super sad to hear someone say something like that when they have lost all hope.
Today is also a sad day for both of us, as it was supposed to be her return flight to Poland today.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet anywhere, but would be interested to know if some kind of plan is in place for a humanitarian corridor to be established to let people from that region move West. I don't know. I heard someone briefly mention something like that, but I'm not a war-time expert.
Your stories are tough to read. This is probably a dumb suggestion, but can you get into the Ukraine and get her and her family out? Loop south around Kyiv and meet them in Dnipro or something like that?
Very interesting thread for foreign policy buffs looking at bi-partisan commentary on some of the missteps that led us to where we are.
Dont get me wrong, Putin is bat-#### insane, but many strategists on both sides had some very grave predictions on this very scenario occurring given some of the NATO moves in the late 1990s and then further posturing since then. Interesting read seeing the predictions and regrets from those directly involved in the decisions.
Take whatever stance you want on the piece but it’s evident that the buildup to this has been a point of political contention for years. It also seems quite clear that Curves was asking how? including policies and actions taken leading up to Russian invasion and not just OMG wtf is a NUKE guyz?
The greatest act of aggression on the European continent in our lifetime, and someone gets mocked for asking a question that evidently is not a one sentence ####ing answer.
__________________
No, no…I’m not sloppy, or lazy. This is a sign of the boredom.
Take whatever stance you want on the piece but it’s evident that the buildup to this has been a point of political contention for years. It also seems quite clear that Curves was asking how? including policies and actions taken leading up to Russian invasion and not just OMG wtf is a NUKE guyz?
The greatest act of aggression on the European continent in our lifetime, and someone gets mocked for asking a question that evidently is not a one sentence ####ing answer.
Well, the question he asked was this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by curves2000
Why didn't we all skip a few steps and just end it for Putin? I know this isn't a popular opinion and that there is a complicated issue with military force against Russian leaders but it's over.
... And that does actually have a pretty simple answer.
There just seems to be this narrative going around among some people that there is a line Putin could cross in Ukraine that would involve Biden sending in the Marines and the rest of the world coming with them. Like, if this war killed enough civilians, the rest of the world would say "look, that's quite enough of that" and deploy their own militaries to put an end to it. And that is something that people need to disabuse themselves of. Even if the Russian military literally started setting innocent civilians on fire with gasoline each hour in the town square of every major city to try to get the Ukrainians to surrender, or started firing nerve gas into apartment buildings, or a hundred other horrific things they could theoretically do, there still likely wouldn't be a military answer from the West. That's a reality everyone needs to come to terms with if they haven't already.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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Putin's spokesman clarified that "denazification" means removing combat units that share nazi ideology. Apparently "denazification" does not imply overthrowing Zelenskiy, which is good news. It also appear to be easily achieve in negotiations. Just claim that some of the destroyed ukranian troops were Nazis and consider this objective accomplished.
What a ####ing load of bull####.
I do not believe that is the aim of this War. The aim is to overthrow a democratically elected gov't and replace it with a puppet.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
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Your stories are tough to read. This is probably a dumb suggestion, but can you get into the Ukraine and get her and her family out? Loop south around Kyiv and meet them in Dnipro or something like that?
Nope, and I absolutely would not do that. Funny enough, my Dad actually wrote me yesterday and made me promise that with the UA government accepting volunteers and handing out rifles, that I wasn't planning some kind of Rambo mission to go rescue my wife (his exact words).
If they could leave, they would. But the problem is that because they are so close to the Russian border, they are essentially pinned down since the road that connects them to Kharkov is one of the Russian vehicle routes. Not to mention roads, bridges, infrastructure blown out all over the place.
She knows the travel routes in her country, and if they are able to leave they will. But step 1 is being allowed freedom of movement, and currently that is being suppressed in their location. The Polish border is as far as I will go. Maybe cross the UA border to find her once she is in the 'home stretch'. But that's it.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 03-02-2022 at 08:50 AM.
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Nope, and I absolutely would not do that. Funny enough, my Dad actually wrote me yesterday and made me promise that with the UA government accepting volunteers and handing out rifles, that I wasn't planning some kind of Rambo mission to go rescue my wife (his exact words).
sorry I know this isn't supposed to be funny but now I can't stop imagining you saying enough is enough and doing this
Your stories are tough to read. This is probably a dumb suggestion, but can you get into the Ukraine and get her and her family out? Loop south around Kyiv and meet them in Dnipro or something like that?
I know there is nothing to make light of in HW's posts, but dude, suggesting he pull a Rambo and infiltrate Russian-occupied territory in an active warzone, travel hundreds of kilometers undetected with no military training whatsoever, and somehow extricate his wife and her elderly family by himself to another country is a wild suggestion. Like, I don't even know if an 80s action movie would have predicated itself on such a preposterous scenario.
I know there is nothing to make light of in HW's posts, but dude, suggesting he pull a Rambo and infiltrate Russian-occupied territory in an active warzone, travel hundreds of kilometers undetected with no military training whatsoever, and somehow extricate his wife and her elderly family by himself to another country is a wild suggestion. Like, I don't even know if an 80s action movie would have predicated itself on such a preposterous scenario.
I mean also have you seem him in his avatar...........
HW, I hope things calm down around your wife and her family. I am inspired by your strength in dealing with this, while having no ability to affect change to the situation.
Please remember to take care of yourself. Not only does she need you now, she is going to need you when this is over and you are back together. These experiences leave scars on the soul of a person.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
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The US+NATO instigating Russia into war seems like the simplest and most rational explanation for this conflict.
#### Russia for going through with it, but equally #### the US for decades of agitation knowing full well what they were pushing for. Given the US military's rich history of instigating conflicts and then lying their asses off about it, I can't help but think this was their intended outcome: push Putin into a corner; smash and humiliate him once he finally calls the dogs of war; bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella. All with full approval from the world community because everyone has goldfish memories when it comes to US military aggression.
^ Sorry Matata but what corner was Putin backed into? He thought Ukraine was going to invade Russia or something?
At this point even if Ukraine conceded right now, the net cost of this to Russia is so huge, it will probably take a decade or more for them to recover. The economic destruction from this will linger in Russia for a long time after peace is resolved. Its not like Ukraine is an economic superpower that can offset the harm that Russia's economic implosion will do.
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I do not believe that is the aim of this War. The aim is to overthrow a democratically elected gov't and replace it with a puppet.
Well obviously it's a lie, but unless Putin is overthrown by Russians themselves, to end the war we need a story of what happened that both sides can accept, and since there isn't an acceptable truth available, I'll take lie.
What matters the most in the short term is what really happens, not what Putin's next lie to his people is.
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The US+NATO instigating Russia into war seems like the simplest and most rational explanation for this conflict.
#### Russia for going through with it, but equally #### the US for decades of agitation knowing full well what they were pushing for. Given the US military's rich history of instigating conflicts and then lying their asses off about it, I can't help but think this was their intended outcome: push Putin into a corner; smash and humiliate him once he finally calls the dogs of war; bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella. All with full approval from the world community because everyone has goldfish memories when it comes to US military aggression.
Whaaaaat?
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The US+NATO instigating Russia into war seems like the simplest and most rational explanation for this conflict.
#### Russia for going through with it, but equally #### the US for decades of agitation knowing full well what they were pushing for. Given the US military's rich history of instigating conflicts and then lying their asses off about it, I can't help but think this was their intended outcome: push Putin into a corner; smash and humiliate him once he finally calls the dogs of war; bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella. All with full approval from the world community because everyone has goldfish memories when it comes to US military aggression.
That was the most rational explanation you could come up with to explain this situation? really?
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