Who wouldn't want to live in a country perpetually destined to be a vassal state. Meant to be beaten, starved, and bombed by your larger, socially defective, and incompetent neighbor who feels it's their birthright to do so.
Lady on MSNBC from Lviv this morning said Ukrainians have woken up to the fact they'd rather be dead than live on their knees.
Last edited by burn_this_city; 03-01-2022 at 10:16 PM.
It's not bi-partisan as much as it is apologetic for Russia's insanity. The existential threat is their own imperialism and the inter-generational trauma they caused to pretty much every country they ruled in the past 100 years. These talking heads offer no insight as to why all of these European post-Soviet and post-Warsaw Pact countries used NATO as a shoulder to cry on as soon as they became free. With the exception of Belarus I guess, which is objectively weird and broken.
All of their arguments are that NATO should not expand because Russia is an insecure hyper nationalist state that we should tip toe around. Sorry, but Russia should get to decide whether or not their neighbours deserve protection from them. NATO has never shown an interest on taking Russian land, but Russia has a long history of taking countries that are in NATO. Bowing to their whims shouldn't be the goal.
If you read the thread, the posts are all historical and no one is an apologist for Russia. No one is saying Putin is right or Russia is valid in their attack, they're just warning that this might happen in the future, and that Russian policy and political class was such that Ukraine was a bright-line and if you crossed it, this might happen.
They point out there were alternative paths historically that some view that might have avoided bloodshed. The fact you have people involved in the decisions regretting the choices made, is quite interesting.
Don't have outside light controle but I've been sporting this for my comp and sporting the Ukrainian flag in rocket league. I'm in the champions leugues.
so high up e sport wise.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has signed a decree that prohibits taking more than $10,000 worth of foreign currency in cash and “monetary instruments” out of Russia.
The move is in response to the crippling sanctions Western nations have imposed on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine, which this week tanked the rouble and sent Russians flocking to banks and ATMs fearing for the fate of their savings.
Other measures Putin ordered this week included obligating Russian exporters to sell 80 per cent of their revenues in foreign currency, prohibiting Russian residents from providing non-residents with foreign currency under loan agreements and from depositing foreign currency into foreign bank accounts.
Never a good sign for the average person in a country when you have currency limits implemented.
NATO has never shown an interest on taking Russian land, but Russia has a long history of taking countries that are in NATO. Bowing to their whims shouldn't be the goal.
Your post is generally fair, but the quotd part is not. You either consider strictly NATO vs Russia and then neither have ever tried to take eack other land. Or you can go further history in country vs country. And obviously Germany (Hitler and also WW1), France (Napoleon), Poland, Turkey and to some extent Norway (Vikings) have surely invaded Russia. Hitler alone killed 27 millions of Russians. There are strong reasons why Russia is insecure about the west. Yes, it is mutual. No doubt. But to claim that current NATO countries never did no wrong to Russia is just not true at all
Last edited by Pointman; 03-01-2022 at 11:19 PM.
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Your post is generally fair, but the quotd part is not. You either consider strictly NATO vs Russia and then neither have ever tried to take eack other land. Or you can go further history in country vs country. And obviously Germany (Hitler and also WW1), France (Napoleon), Poland, Turkey and to some extent Norway (Vikings) have surely invaded Russia. Hitler alone killed 27 millions of Russians. There are strong reasons why Russia is insecure about the west. Yes, it is mutual. No doubt. But to claim that current NATO countries never did no wrong to Russia is just not true at all
Since NATO was formed in 1949 (which was clearly implied), has NATO ever shown an interest in taking on Russian land? That's the question that was being asked.
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Since NATO was formed in 1949 (which was clearly implied), has NATO ever shown an interest in taking on Russian land? That's the question that was being asked.
The post claimed, correctly, that since NATO was formed, no NATO country has tried to take Russian land. The correct counter claim would be that since NATO was formed, Russia didn't try to take NATO land either. However the goalposts were latently moved and it was claimed that Russia has a "long history" of invading countries that are now in NATO. I was basically calling out this goalposts move. You either compare NATO vs Russia since 1949 or the whole history on country vs country basis. You can't fairly say that NATO didn't invade Russia after 1949 but Russia invaded Poland in XVIII century
Last edited by Pointman; 03-01-2022 at 11:50 PM.
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The post claimed, correctly, that since NATO was formed, no NATO country has tried to take Russian land. The correct counter claim would be that since NATO was formed, Russia didn't try to take NATO land either. However the goalposts were latently moved and it was claimed that Russia has a "long history" of invading countries that are now in NATO. I was basically calling out this goalposts move. You either compare NATO vs Russia since 1949 or the whole history on country vs country basis
Ahh I see your point and I misunderstood earlier. It's baffling though as now Russia made far more enemies with this war, some of which want to join NATO.
NATO has been remarkable at bringing peace to Europe. It was unthinkable at one time the English and French, French and Germans, Germans and Slavs, and so on, could all coexist in an alliance. It also assures the right for smaller nations to exist. There have been a few blips, but for the most part, Europe has been the most stable and peaceful as it ever has been and it is all due to the alliance. No country has ever been forced to join NATO, but they do so because they want to.
I think the real fear that Russian leaders have is that is shows that empires and mega-states are not the way of the future.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
May every Russian soldier who battles Ukraine right now be a healthy feast for the sunflowers.
Slava Ukraini, Glory to the heroes . And ya, #### Putin.
Very interesting thread for foreign policy buffs looking at bi-partisan commentary on some of the missteps that led us to where we are.
Dont get me wrong, Putin is bat-#### insane, but many strategists on both sides had some very grave predictions on this very scenario occurring given some of the NATO moves in the late 1990s and then further posturing since then. Interesting read seeing the predictions and regrets from those directly involved in the decisions.
This deserves to be quoted and I would encourage anyone with time to read the articles and watch the videos to get a truly well rounded understanding of why we are where we are today.
If you don't have time, I'll suggest this 15 minute video from Stephen Cohen who is frighteningly prescient in his remarks:
Maybe, although I think they are shocked at what's happened and don't appear to have planned for a plan b.
That only appears to be the case due to the media focus on the immediate area around Kiev, when most of Russia's forces have been deployed in the East (cutting off the Ukrainian Army) and South (taking control of the coast).
Will just quickly update on my wife and her family's situation in Kharkov Oblast.
Spoiler!
Another tough night, but she managed to get the most sleep she's gotten since this ordeal started; 4 hours. I'm tired too since I respond immediately to any text she sends me, regardless of the hour. But I will never take sleep for granted again and not complain about my own lack of sleep.
She said today some food arrived and they started handing it out to some residence in the village. Still, they have a food supply of their own and didn't want to leave their apartment in case it was some kind of ambush, trick, or some way to deport people. They don't want to show their faces to anybody. Crazy to even think that way, but that is their mentality now; trust nothing going on around them. Still, the place has been cut off from food for a week and trick or not, I'm glad some people got something to eat.
Overall her ability to mentally withstand this is dwindling. As we were speaking she started freaking out, as dozens of helicopters started flying overhead. She's on edge 24/7. She's seen the photos and videos in her home city of Kharkov. Heartbreaking for her. Begged her to stop watching the news, photos, and whatnot as it is only torture. I know it's easier said than done. The big square in the center that got bombed yesterday was where he had our first date and is both our favorite places when we visit Kharkov. #### this war so much.
Tried to distract her by sending her various emails, posts and messages from my friends and family offering their prayers and support for her. Not sure if it works, but if for even a split second she feels hope, it's worth it. Her and her mom fully agree that this is no way to live and they would rather be dead then live a life like this. It's scary to think like that and breaks my heart when she said it so bluntly. I try to talk to her about our future together, remind her of her ambitions, moving to Canada to start a family. But all she thought about today was not living. Having said that, she has never been suicidal and I don't believe she would act on it. Just...super sad to hear someone say something like that when they have lost all hope.
Today is also a sad day for both of us, as it was supposed to be her return flight to Poland today.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet anywhere, but would be interested to know if some kind of plan is in place for a humanitarian corridor to be established to let people from that region move West. I don't know. I heard someone briefly mention something like that, but I'm not a war-time expert.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 03-02-2022 at 03:26 AM.
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Putin's spokesman clarified that "denazification" means removing combat units that share nazi ideology. Apparently "denazification" does not imply overthrowing Zelenskiy, which is good news. It also appear to be easily achieve in negotiations. Just claim that some of the destroyed ukranian troops were Nazis and consider this objective accomplished.
Last edited by Pointman; 03-02-2022 at 06:49 AM.
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