Buy?/Sell?/All-in?/Tank? What should the Flames do?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by slcrocket

So how again are the Flames acquiring someone with term if we are hoping to re-sign Gaudreau/Tkachuk/Mangiapane/Kylington? I don't think we can re-sign all four in either case. If all four want to be here, ship out Mangiapane as he likely has a higher value now than he'll ever have. If not, you can't let any of them go for free.

This has to be about long-term competitiveness, not throwing all chips in for a team with a very outside shot at competing. I love this team and can't wait to see a playoff run, but I'm not deluding myself that this team competes with Colorado/Vegas/Florida/Tampa/etc. Not yet.

Colorado in round 3 or Florida/Tampa in the final...would take my chances. Its not like the Flames would have to take out all those teams.

Vegas has the same record as the Flames despite a much easier schedule

[1qqaaz]

I think Calgary is like Minnesota in that if they make it past round 1 they will be scary. But whether they make it past round 1 is a huge question.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Groot

I'm on team all-in for sure. In my ideal world we put together 3 trades, one to move cap, one to bring in a rental, one for a player with term.

Trade 1
To Arizona:
Sean Monahan
Calgary 2023 3rd round pick
Calgary 2022 5th round pick

To Calgary:
Arizona 2022 6th Round Pick

Trade 2
To Philadelphia:
Jusso Valimaki
Calgary 2022 1st round pick

To Calgary:
Claude Giroux

Trade 3
To Montreal:
Jakob Pelletier
Calgary 2022 2nd round pick (from Florida)

To Calgary:
Tyler Toffoli

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Giroux - Toffoli
Coleman - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis
Richardson/Ritchie

Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Tanev
Zadorov - Gudbrandson
Stone

Markstrom
Vladar

Trading Pelletier for Toffoli is awful asset management. Pelletier could become a new Toffoli. In the cap world, a trade like that never happens.

Valimaki plus 1st is way too much to give up for a rental.

I'm all for trading the 1st for help this year, it's not a deep draft, and this is a good year to go all in. However, Pelletier and Valimaki are high end prospects. Unless it's a long-term Eichel type player coming back, no way do you trade those guys.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Groot

I'm on team all-in for sure. In my ideal world we put together 3 trades, one to move cap, one to bring in a rental, one for a player with term.

Trade 1
To Arizona:
Sean Monahan
Calgary 2023 3rd round pick
Calgary 2022 5th round pick

To Calgary:
Arizona 2022 6th Round Pick

Trade 2
To Philadelphia:
Jusso Valimaki
Calgary 2022 1st round pick

To Calgary:
Claude Giroux

Trade 3
To Montreal:
Jakob Pelletier
Calgary 2022 2nd round pick (from Florida)

To Calgary:
Tyler Toffoli

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Giroux - Toffoli
Coleman - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis
Richardson/Ritchie

Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Tanev
Zadorov - Gudbrandson
Stone

Markstrom
Vladar

Credit for posting a series of trades that could plausibly get the green light from all the teams involved.

Based on the premise of the Flames going for it while Gaudreau and Tkachuk are still on the team, it’s a solid plan. But I think #3 is a bit too high of a price for Toffoli. Change Pelletier to Zary or Dube and it’s more palatable.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Groot

I'm on team all-in for sure. In my ideal world we put together 3 trades, one to move cap, one to bring in a rental, one for a player with term.

Trade 1
To Arizona:
Sean Monahan
Calgary 2023 3rd round pick
Calgary 2022 5th round pick

To Calgary:
Arizona 2022 6th Round Pick

Trade 2
To Philadelphia:
Jusso Valimaki
Calgary 2022 1st round pick

To Calgary:
Claude Giroux

Trade 3
To Montreal:
Jakob Pelletier
Calgary 2022 2nd round pick (from Florida)

To Calgary:
Tyler Toffoli

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Giroux - Toffoli
Coleman - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis
Richardson/Ritchie

Hanifin - Andersson
Kylington - Tanev
Zadorov - Gudbrandson
Stone

Markstrom
Vladar

So, Arizona picks up about $6.5M of dead weight salary to get a 5th and a 3rd LOL? Whether you like Monny or not, he does nothing for Arizona, and they wouldn't pick him up for anything less than a 1st. He has zero value to them.

[Harry Lime]

I don't think that you can trade Monahan and Backlund at their current rates, and get anything close to their value on the ice coming back. The team needs to be improved on the wings, and we currently have six left handed players on the wing. The first question to ask is pretty apparent.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

So, Arizona picks up about $6.5M of dead weight salary to get a 5th and a 3rd LOL? Whether you like Monny or not, he does nothing for Arizona, and they wouldn't pick him up for anything less than a 1st. He has zero value to them.

I think Arizona set up the framework of what it takes for them to take on salary this off-season:

• Stralman($5.5M) + 2nd (2024) + prospect (2019 2nd) for a 7th
• Gostisbehere($4.5M x 2) + 2nd (2022) + 7th (2022) for futures
• Ladd ($5.5M x 2) + 2nd (2021) + 2nd (2022) + conditional 3rd(2023) on Ladd not retiring, or playing any games in the last season for futures

Based on this list I think it would be either 2 x 2nds or a 2nd + 3rd to trade Monahan to Arizona.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I think Arizona set up the framework of what it takes for them to take on salary this off-season:

• Stralman($5.5M) + 2nd (2024) + prospect (2019 2nd) for a 7th
• Gostisbehere($4.5M x 2) + 2nd (2022) + 7th (2022) for futures
• Ladd ($5.5M x 2) + 2nd (2021) + 2nd (2022) + conditional 3rd(2023) on Ladd not retiring, or playing any games in the last season for futures

Based on this list I think it would be either 2 x 2nds or a 2nd + 3rd to trade Monahan to Arizona.

The bigger factor for ARI is actual salary.

Ghost was 4.25M-6.5M over 2 years (depending on who picked up his 2.25M SB this year...he was traded Jul-22 - not sure if those payments were delayed to the 28th or not?)

Stralman was 4.5-5.5M; same question $1M SB traded Jul-26.

Ladd was $5-8M over 2; traded Jul-17 and had $3M SB.

Eriksson, Beagle, and Roussel each fit the backdiving criteria in the OEL deal, too.

The other factor will be if they can flip these guys at their final TDLs - only Stralman this year who has unremarkable numbers despite playing 20:30, but he probably still fetches a cond. 3rd-5th.

Ghost has done a lot to repair his value and might fetch another 2nd next year.


Monahan is $6M to his 6.375AAV with no SB. I still think he is a reasonable bet for a team trying to upswing sooner than later (OTT/DET/NJD/SEA/CBJ) instead of going overboard on AAV/term with a Trocheck/Strome/Rask/Tierney type...or if they strike out on even getting one of those guys. I think it's more likely that Monahan gets a slight net positive return than that he requires a sweetener, but time will tell!

[Groot]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I think Arizona set up the framework of what it takes for them to take on salary this off-season:

• Stralman($5.5M) + 2nd (2024) + prospect (2019 2nd) for a 7th
• Gostisbehere($4.5M x 2) + 2nd (2022) + 7th (2022) for futures
• Ladd ($5.5M x 2) + 2nd (2021) + 2nd (2022) + conditional 3rd(2023) on Ladd not retiring, or playing any games in the last season for futures

Based on this list I think it would be either 2 x 2nds or a 2nd + 3rd to trade Monahan to Arizona.

Arizona also needs to hit the cap floor next year, and needs another 50+ million in salary to do so. I can't see them signing UFA's unless it's a 1 year contract just to hit the floor, so Monahan helps them get there without committing past next year, and they could probably get a late round pick next year at deadline or let him expire to UFA. He also won't ruin their tanking plans. And I really liked Monahan but he doesn't fit well in the current makeup of the team.

I don't know if Valimaki is destined for a longterm spot on the team, making more than Zadorov or Gudbrandson to play AHL, which is why I included him. And I think Pelletier tops out at a Toffoli level, and the team benefits from a Toffoli now versus maybe someone becoming that type of player in 2-4 years.

Again, team all-in!!

[powderjunkie]

Half-baked spitball:

Valimaki+Monahan to DET for: P Suter + Namestnikov + WAS 2nd + Lindstrom (RHD)

Namestnikov is pending UFA; Suter is small but has another year at 3.25M. With 22 and 20 pts (mostly EVP in both cases - in a few more games) they are producing about the same pace as Coleman EVS.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

The flames arguably have players who are top 3 talents in Tkachuk and Gaudreau, so what if they weren’t drafted in those spots they are starting to present as top end talent and that’s where the gamble is. I personally think this is the beginning of the next evolution of both Gaudreau and Tkachuk and if we end up keeping them and it lead to a piddly 6-7 years of dominance in the playoffs and a cup or two then oh darn I guess. If the Flames push all in it’s a good sign to show Tkachuk and Johnny they mean to win and with both Johnny and Tkachuk giving no reason to make anyone believe they wouldn’t consider extending in Calgary I don’t get why you wouldn’t want to see another top 6 added into the fold. Even if it allowed us to get just one swing with this core I’d be grateful to see it after following it very closely for 8 seasons.

The elephant in the room (as others have already mentioned) is how on earth do you keep everybody next year, in addition to a deadline acquisition with term remaining, while staying under the cap? This team will probably have to move futures to offload Monahan's salary and maybe Lucic's as well (though he could possibly be bought out), which further highlights the importance of not offloading too many futures this deadline.

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

TBL.

LAK.

WAS traded Forsberg for Erat and won a cup 5 years later.

Which years did they do a mass offload of futures to go all-in on one playoff run, and which futures did they trade away?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Half-baked spitball:

Valimaki+Monahan to DET for: P Suter + Namestnikov + WAS 2nd + Lindstrom (RHD)

Namestnikov is pending UFA; Suter is small but has another year at 3.25M. With 22 and 20 pts (mostly EVP in both cases - in a few more games) they are producing about the same pace as Coleman EVS.

What’s in it for Detroit?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Groot

Arizona also needs to hit the cap floor next year, and needs another 50+ million in salary to do so.

Sure, but with the flat cap, teams will be lining up again to give them picks to offload bad contracts. They won't have trouble meeting the floor.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Sure, but with the flat cap, teams will be lining up again to give them picks to offload bad contracts. They won't have trouble meeting the floor.

Hopefully the Flames can take advantage and offload also. If you agree that Coyotes will be taking on bad contracts, what other players will fill up 30ish million from other teams before the Flames can participate?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s in it for Detroit?

Valimaki - DET's LHD depth is totally barren, with only Oesterle under contract for one more year.

Monahan may be considered an upgrade on P Suter (at least in a 2C slot)? I'm probably under-rating him b/c hockey-ref has him listed at 5'9 (now I see other sites seem to say 5'11) and I wasn't sure if he was actually a pure C.

Like I said, half-baked.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Groot

Arizona also needs to hit the cap floor next year, and needs another 50+ million in salary to do so. I can't see them signing UFA's unless it's a 1 year contract just to hit the floor, so Monahan helps them get there without committing past next year, and they could probably get a late round pick next year at deadline or let him expire to UFA. He also won't ruin their tanking plans. And I really liked Monahan but he doesn't fit well in the current makeup of the team.

I don't know if Valimaki is destined for a longterm spot on the team, making more than Zadorov or Gudbrandson to play AHL, which is why I included him. And I think Pelletier tops out at a Toffoli level, and the team benefits from a Toffoli now versus maybe someone becoming that type of player in 2-4 years.

Again, team all-in!!

It's a matter of opinion, but I feel that in order to pull off Trade 1 and Trade 2 that you outlined, the Flames need to add. It's a fun scenario, however unlikely.

I see this team's all in being one trade(top 3-6 forward) at the trade deadline, and then sort out our big ticket contracts in the off-season.

I also don't see much value in Valimaki/Dube/Monahan in trades at the moment. I am not saying that they are bad players. In fact, I hope they all take steps forward, but currently these players don't offer a team much value.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What’s in it for Detroit?

Boring Sean Monahan tweets.

All I can really think of.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Valimaki - DET's LHD depth is totally barren, with only Oesterle under contract for one more year.

Monahan may be considered an upgrade on P Suter (at least in a 2C slot)? I'm probably under-rating him b/c hockey-ref has him listed at 5'9 (now I see other sites seem to say 5'11) and I wasn't sure if he was actually a pure C.

Like I said, half-baked.

I can’t imagine Detroit wanting to add that salary
They want to maintain cap flexibility

[Moneyhands23]

I'm down for the big move. Valamaki, zary, 1st,2nd, Backlund for Hertl.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

I'm down for the big move. Valamaki, zary, 1st,2nd, Backlund for Hertl.

well that would be insane unless he signed an extension

I am down for the big move too but lets not get crazy