Flames players analytics data - Page 15 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

GreenLantern2814 · 11-08-2021, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingo

Come on ...

Lets not convert this to another Treliving bash thread.

This is a little hockey player, he makes Gaudreau look big. There aren't a lot of teams that would look at his modest AHL numbers, height and size and scream "fourth liner! Give him a chance!"

To succeed at Johnny’s size in the NHL, you have to be a Johnny level skater.

Or at least a Byron level one.

Phillips isn’t.

He could probably carve a nice little career for himself over in Europe.

gvitaly · 11-08-2021, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Phillips hasn't been productive the way a surefire first liner might be, but he's certainly produced at a level that warrants a look on what is essentially our fourth line, especially considering how strong the fit could be
As for experience... the only way to get experience... is to get experience.

I thought he was far from impressive during the preseason. I don't see why he is a good fit. He did okay in his one game at the end of last season, but I was expecting a lot more out of him in training camp. I thought Gawdin and Duehr looked more impressive.

CsInMyBlood · 11-08-2021, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Honestly hard to believe.

Doesn't match the eye test, at least in the past two weeks.

Wait. What is your eye test telling you? I see him trying but hes a day late a dollar short the majority of the time in every zone.

Knightslayer · 11-08-2021, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Wait. What is your eye test telling you? I see him trying but hes a day late a dollar short the majority of the time in every zone.

Yeah has matched the eye test for me. A pp goal doesn't change the eye test for me.

GreenLantern2814 · 11-08-2021, 07:46 PM

Monahan needs to play with a bigger stick.

It nerfs his capability defensively and he doesn’t do anything offensively that demands such a short cue.

Monahammer · 11-09-2021, 08:56 AM

Lol Matt Phillips on the 4th line, good laugh!

I have been a Monahan at centre champion his whole career. But, IMO, it's time he takes a wing role on the dube line. Ruzicka is showing that he could definitely hang as a bottom 6 centre at minimum. Other wingers deserve the chance more than Phillips at this point too. Pospisil, Pelletier, would both fit better as potential 4th line wingers.

PeteMoss · 11-09-2021, 08:57 AM

No idea what this stat is, but while on hockeyreference.com, noticed that they have Rasmus Andersson leading in defensive point share. Congrats to him.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/lea...tml#stats::dps

Bingo · 11-09-2021, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

No idea what this stat is, but while on hockeyreference.com, noticed that they have Rasmus Andersson leading in defensive point share. Congrats to him.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/lea...tml#stats::dps

From their glossary ...

Quote:

DPS
▼ -- Defensive Point Shares; an estimate of the number of points contributed by a player due to his defense.

Classic_Sniper · 11-09-2021, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I know. I was taking issue with Andy & Rono and their ‘Woof’. I don't think Monahan deserves a ‘woof’ at all.

See, I think this is getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. It's far too early to be talking about Monahan's trade value. Can we at least get him in condition first? After all, he's not on the fourth line because Dube has been wowing the league on the third. Sutter has made it quite clear that he's bringing the guy back slowly, and he's not there yet.

This is the same stuff I went through with James Neal 3 years ago. I said it time and time again very early on that I didn't see James Neal working out because there was no fit there.

It's the same story for Monahan here. Once the new top line was formed, the writing was on the wall. That's why I felt he needed to be traded this past off-season, because I knew he was going to struggle this season. Where's the fit? He's never been fast, never been agile. All the time in the world for him to recover isn't going to change the fact that he has always needed an elite playmaker like Gaudureau to produce.

Monahan has a hard time creating chances for himself and that's the predicament he's in right now, his current linemates aren't going to create magic for him to score in the slot, so his production will wane. But to me, for the minutes he's playing and the standard of what a typical bottom 6 center should produce, he has to offer at minimum, 20-25 even strength points right now. That's what a guy like Derek Ryan gave the Flames and with Monahan's contract and pedigree, I think it's fair to say he should be well above that. So he's got a lot of work to do to get to that point.

But regardless, the contracts for Tkachuk, Gaudreau and Mangiapane will be expensive next season. So there may not be an option other than to trade him. So no, I don't agree that it's too early to talk about trade value at all, because I believe it should've been done this past summer while his value was higher then it is now.

Jay Random · 11-09-2021, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

But regardless, the contracts for Tkachuk, Gaudreau and Mangiapane will be expensive next season. So there may not be an option other than to trade him. So no, I don't agree that it's too early to talk about trade value at all, because I believe it should've been done this past summer while his value was higher then it is now.

You could no doubt have traded the severely injured, under-the-knife Monahan last summer to Arizona by throwing in some 1st-round picks to get them to take his cap hit. Are you seriously suggesting that his value has gone down from that?

BeltlineFan · 11-09-2021, 11:09 AM

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of GAR, but having three players in the top twelve and two of the top four is probably a good thing!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1457856177782484996

Classic_Sniper · 11-09-2021, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You could no doubt have traded the severely injured, under-the-knife Monahan last summer to Arizona by throwing in some 1st-round picks to get them to take his cap hit. Are you seriously suggesting that his value has gone down from that?

We don't know what his trade value was last summer. But at the very least, his drop in production could've been blamed on injuries. But this season, what can be said? How is him playing on the 4th line going to help him increase his trade value. He's currently sitting at 0 even strength points. Worst on the team, even Trevor Lewis has 1.

If Sutter didn't throw Monahan a bone by playing him on powerplay unit 1, he might be at 0 points this season. If I'm a competent GM, there's absolutely zero chance that I would trade for an injury prone $6M center who's producing at well below replacement level. Even if as a PP specialist, that's far too expensive.

I also don't see how Monahan just wakes up and eventually figures it out. It never happened for James Neal. What's more likely is that he'll continue to rotate between linemates and play dump & chase which is not his game.

If we look at the Flames cap situation next season. There's a major cap crunch looming and salary has to be shed.

GranteedEV · 11-09-2021, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I also don't see how Monahan just wakes up and eventually figures it out.

Lucic - Monahan - Phillips

It will save Monahan's season.

Hopefully Duehr can slot in next to Eatbread and Dube too, though it remains to be seen.

This team still has unrealized upside. I think Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington all have another gear on the blueline too.

GreenLantern2814 · 11-09-2021, 12:00 PM

Monahan on the 4th line isn’t hurting anyone at the moment.

Keep him there where he’s better than whatever scrubs or rookies the opposition sends out on their 4th line, and give him his PP time to keep his stats respectable. He’s a good finisher.

He might be the worst centre at carrying the puck I’ve ever seen. So, unless he gets better at that, he’s going to be limited in the next stage of his career.

I don’t know how someone just gets better at that at the NHL level, though.

Classic_Sniper · 11-09-2021, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Lucic - Monahan - Phillips

It will save Monahan's season.

Hopefully Duehr can slot in next to Eatbread and Dube too, though it remains to be seen.

This team still has unrealized upside. I think Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington all have another gear on the blueline too.

I think we've already seen Lucic with Monahan this season and I personally didn't see much. I'm not that bullish on Philips, thought his preseason was pretty mediocre. Duehr is a very intriguing player though.

Ultimately, in my opinion, Monahan needs to find himself a guy who can push the pace for him. He's not the type of center who can hold onto the puck and rush up the ice while distributing it effectively to either wing. I wonder if Blake Coleman can be that guy. Maybe find that pair a guy who can retrieve the puck as well and can cycle it a bit, maybe a Pitlick?

Personally though, I'd like to see Backlund with Mangiapane and Dube, saw them together that one game in the preseason and there's something there with that trio. Mangiapane and Backlund are more effective cycling than they are on the rush, so they work well together. Throw in Dube who can hold onto puck, who can finish and push the pace. That would be my ideal lines top 3 lines.

Classic_Sniper · 11-09-2021, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Monahan on the 4th line isn’t hurting anyone at the moment.

Keep him there where he’s better than whatever scrubs or rookies the opposition sends out on their 4th line, and give him his PP time to keep his stats respectable. He’s a good finisher.

He might be the worst centre at carrying the puck I’ve ever seen. So, unless he gets better at that, he’s going to be limited in the next stage of his career.

I don’t know how someone just gets better at that at the NHL level, though.

He won't improve. It's not in Monahan's game. His acceleration and overall skating/agility is not good, so he can't get a good push off when the puck lands on his stick. He also doesn't compensate by using his frame to protect the puck like other centermen of his size.

The league has also become a lot faster since he was a rookie, so backcheck pressure is incredible now and that doesn't bode well for the type of player/center he is. The brain trust of this organization should have seen this coming and been proactive. Now they're stuck with an albatross contract which will really be apparent this coming offseason.

If he can continue to bag PP points, at the very least, maybe Treliving can find a taker that thinks they can fix him.

SuperMatt18 · 11-09-2021, 03:02 PM

If the Flames falter and need a shake up here then I think I'd go with these lines.

Gaudreau - Lindholm - Coleman: Feel like Coleman's speed and grit would fit well next to Gaudreau.

Tkachuk - Backlund - Pitlick: New version of 3M line, Tkachuk's best has still been next to Backlund.

Mangiapane - Dube - Lucic: For whatever reason Dube and Lucic have always clicked, it's only 20 minutes but this trio has been lights out together so far this year.

Pelletier - Monahan - Lewis: Monahan could use some speed, enthusiasm, and skill on his line. Pelletier would bring that.

Ideally Monahan moves up the line up at some point but if they are set on keeping Dube at center then I'm not sure where he fits in.

FanIn80 · 11-09-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

No idea what this stat is, but while on hockeyreference.com, noticed that they have Rasmus Andersson leading in defensive point share. Congrats to him.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/lea...tml#stats::dps

Among defencemen, Adam Fox is 1st in Offensive Point Shares, 11th in Defensive Point Shares and tied with Roman Josi for 1st in Overall Point Shares.

Does this guy start his NHL career 4th place in Calder votes, immediately followed by back to back Norris wins?

I mean don't get me wrong, definitely "F*** Adam Fox" for sure, but still... has any player ever won the Norris twice in their first three seasons? I can't even imagine the list of players who won a Norris in their first two seasons is that long to begin with - never mind two in three.

Enoch Root · 11-09-2021, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Among defencemen, Adam Fox is 1st in Offensive Point Shares, 11th in Defensive Point Shares and tied with Roman Josi for 1st in Overall Point Shares.

Does this guy start his NHL career 4th place in Calder votes, immediately followed by back to back Norris wins?

I mean don't get me wrong, definitely "F*** Adam Fox" for sure, but still... has any player ever won the Norris twice in their first three seasons? I can't even imagine the list of players who won a Norris in their first two seasons is that long to begin with - never mind two in three.

Bobby Orr

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th seasons (almost missed one)

Enoch Root · 11-09-2021, 03:31 PM

after the Calder as a rookie