[Signing] Rangers sign Adam Fox to 7 year extension ($9.5 mil AAV)

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I get a kick out of the folks who stick to the whole "it isn't a loophole" argument when it comes to NCAA players.

Lol

Ok sure, the rule isn't different for them but the circumstances are. That makes them much more likely to wait it out and screw the team that drafted them.

A loophole is something that was unintentional that generally gets corrected over time.

There was nothing unintentional about this, and there is no intention of changing it.


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[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, no. It’s at best fair, considering his comps.

Disagree. Makar signed a 6 year deal covering only 1 year UFA. This contract covers 4 UFA years. That is a huge deal.

He is a great defencemen and won a Norris at 23. I don't see how this isn't considered a great deal. He definitely left money on the table.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

You can easily do that. Make a rule in the CBA that is bound by all laws and have the NHLPA agree to it.

Here's a simple rule that would be legal. You don't sign with the team who drafts you, you are not allowed to sign with any other NHL team for 3 years. That is legal and is a huge deterrent. You're not forcing anyone to do anything the same way the NCAA isn't forcing anyone to stay on their team.

To say it isn't fixable is simply not true.

Whether the NHL thinks it's even a problem is another story.

Personally I don't think it's a problem but if it was, it's easily fixable.

Why would the NHLPA ever agree to it?


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[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Why would the NHLPA ever agree to it?


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They might not. That's not the point. It would be legal.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

no other drafted player can become a UFA faster than a college player.

Actually, an NCAA player who plays four years after he is drafted has to wait the longest to become a UFA.

• A player drafted out of junior can refuse to sign for two years, then re-enter the draft. If he goes undrafted the second time, he automatically becomes a UFA after two years. If he is drafted a second time, he can refuse to sign for another two years and become a UFA on June 1 in the 4th year after his initial draft.
  
  
• A player drafted out of Europe can refuse to sign for four years and will become a UFA on June 1 in the 4th year after his draft.
  
  
• A college-bound player can refuse to sign for four years and play his full college career. Once he finishes his senior year, if he remains unsigned, he will become a UFA on August 15.

That extra two and a half months can make a big difference.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Disagree. Makar signed a 6 year deal covering only 1 year UFA. This contract covers 4 UFA years. That is a huge deal.

He is a great defencemen and won a Norris at 23. I don't see how this isn't considered a great deal. He definitely left money on the table.

If a $10M deal is what people would offer, $9.5 is a slight discount. Not a “steal”, especially since he really had no choice, since he won’t play anywhere else.

What I do know is they’d now got $70M on the books for next year, and have to sign Kaako, Miller, Blais, Georgie, sign or replace Strome, and the next year they have Chytil and Lafreniere. They have cap issues.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

You can easily do that. Make a rule in the CBA that is bound by all laws and have the NHLPA agree to it.

Here's a simple rule that would be legal. You don't sign with the team who drafts you, you are not allowed to sign with any other NHL team for 3 years. That is legal and is a huge deterrent. You're not forcing anyone to do anything the same way the NCAA isn't forcing anyone to stay on their team.

That's actually less than the current NCAA rule, because that gives players four years.

Unless, of course, you mean three extra years on top of the current two (for juniors) or four (for college players). At that point, you're getting into the kind of noncompete clause that the courts have historically refused to regard as enforceable.

Frankly, I'm pretty certain that the reason none of this has been changed is that the NHL regards the problem as less of a nuisance than the legal trouble they would risk by trying to remedy it.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Zoller

Do you think the players consider it THAT much of a big deal though?

No, but the union considers every demand from the owners a big deal.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Nobody is saying "force" them but no other drafted player can become a UFA faster than a college player. You can easily fix that and it would be 100% legal.

This is not accurate. In the CBA, NHL teams have 2 years to sign CHL players to an entry-level contract. Players who they do not sign in this time can re-enter the draft. Players who go undrafted in their 2nd draft immediately become UFAs.

Exactly how a player of Fox's caliber would go without being drafted in their 2nd draft would be interesting, perhaps if they broadcasted loud and clear there was only one team with whom they were willing to sign?

However, the fastest route to UFA status is to play CHL hockey, not sign your entry-level contract, then go undrafted in your 2nd draft.

Additionally, players drafted out of Europe (except Russia) also have a possibly shorter route to UFA status, as teams hold a player's rights for four years from the time they're drafted (technically slightly less than 4 years as it goes from draft-day to June 1st of the 4th year). Players who go the NCAA route, teams hold their rights for the duration of their NCAA eligibility, which can last longer than 4 years depending on playing USHL hockey, red-shirting a year (somewhat rare in hockey) injuries, etc.

The NCAA route is actually one of the longer ones to UFA status from draft-day.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by driveway

This is not accurate. In the CBA, NHL teams have 2 years to sign CHL players to an entry-level contract. Players who they do not sign in this time can re-enter the draft. Players who go undrafted in their 2nd draft immediately become UFAs.

Exactly how a player of Fox's caliber would go without being drafted in their 2nd draft would be interesting, perhaps if they broadcasted loud and clear there was only one team with whom they were willing to sign?

However, the fastest route to UFA status is to play CHL hockey, not sign your entry-level contract, then go undrafted in your 2nd draft.

Additionally, players drafted out of Europe (except Russia) also have a possibly shorter route to UFA status, as teams hold a player's rights for four years from the time they're drafted (technically slightly less than 4 years as it goes from draft-day to June 1st of the 4th year). Players who go the NCAA route, teams hold their rights for the duration of their NCAA eligibility, which can last longer than 4 years depending on playing USHL hockey, red-shirting a year (somewhat rare in hockey) injuries, etc.

The NCAA route is actually one of the longer ones to UFA status from draft-day.

That seems highly unlikely that a junior player who doesn't sign with their team re-enter a draft and not be drafted again unless they weren't wanted, which would then make becoming a UFA pretty useless if 32 teams passed on drafting you.

[stang]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

That is the list of players I can find that spurned the team that drafted them after playing the four years in the NCAA to become a UFA. There are likely more, but insignificant players. Zach Hyman told Florida he wouldn't sign and his rights were traded to Toronto. He signed before becoming a UFA, so technically he isn't on the list..

Correct me if I’m wrong but if you’re leaving Hyman off the list you’d have to leave Fox off too. Fox told Calgary/Carolina he wouldn’t sign then got traded to NYR where he signed before he became a UFA.

[RM14]

How about, NCAA players cannot enter the draft until they declare so like the NFL and NBA.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

A loophole is something that was unintentional that generally gets corrected over time.

There was nothing unintentional about this, and there is no intention of changing it.


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I don't give shart what you call it. It's an unfair advantage for college players due to their circumstances.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't give shart what you call it. It's an unfair advantage for college players due to their circumstances.

How is going to school for 4 years and forgoing 6 figure wages and life as a hockey pro an “advantage”? It’s so rarely an issue. And even rarer that it’s an issue that bothers anyone. Vesey was terrible, for example. So whatever.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by RM14

How about, NCAA players cannot enter the draft until they declare so like the NFL and NBA.

That's the one option that would be the most-likely to ever happen. I don't know if the teams would want to go along with it though.

Sure, this system cost the Flames Fox (well, actually they were able to use him as an asset in a larger trade to acquire a couple of key players), but it also gave them the inside track on Gaudreau.

If Gaudreau wouldn't have been draft-eligible until after he won the Hobey Baker in 2014, he would have been a high pick that year (the Flames might have still ended up with him at 4th overall instead of Bennett).


Instead of a couple of late-round gems for the Flames, they might not have ended up drafting either Gaudreau or Fox, and might have needed to include Andersson or Kylington in the trade with Carolina.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

How is going to school for 4 years and forgoing 6 figure wages and life as a hockey pro an “advantage”? It’s so rarely an issue. And even rarer that it’s an issue that bothers anyone. Vesey was terrible, for example. So whatever.

It's an advantage for guys who need more time to develop, so once they've developed for 3 years it's easy for them to just say screw it, I'm going to stay in school one more year and then sign wherever I want.

And in the case of a guy like Fox, just the threat of waiting is enough to get himself traded to the team he wants to go to.

Then instead of a small market team like the Flames being rewarded with a 23 year old Norris trophy winner due to strong scouting and shrewd drafting, they get to watch him do that for the Rangers instead.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's an advantage for guys who need more time to develop, so once they've developed for 3 years it's easy for them to just say screw it, I'm going to stay in school one more year and then sign wherever I want.

And in the case of a guy like Fox, just the threat of waiting is enough to get himself traded to the team he wants to go to.

Then instead of a small market team like the Flames being rewarded with a 23 year old Norris trophy winner due to strong scouting and shrewd drafting, they get to watch him do that for the Rangers instead.

Is someone like that just going to say “okay fine, they own me”. Or bitch and pout and demand a trade? I imagine it would be the latter.

Or at least get out at the earliest possible time. Very few players have this “I’ll only go here” mentality.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

If a $10M deal is what people would offer, $9.5 is a slight discount. Not a “steal”, especially since he really had no choice, since he won’t play anywhere else.

What I do know is they’d now got $70M on the books for next year, and have to sign Kaako, Miller, Blais, Georgie, sign or replace Strome, and the next year they have Chytil and Lafreniere. They have cap issues.

Teams with good players have cap issues.

In other news, the Pope is Catholic.


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[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by stang

Correct me if I’m wrong but if you’re leaving Hyman off the list you’d have to leave Fox off too. Fox told Calgary/Carolina he wouldn’t sign then got traded to NYR where he signed before he became a UFA.

If it hasn't been mentioned, Blake Wheeler can be added to that list as well. Jack Johnson too.

I am sure there are other players who had their rights traded for peanuts because they wouldn't sign.

Gaudreau was almost a casualty as well. The Flames had to basically get on their hands and knees.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Gaudreau was almost a casualty as well. The Flames had to basically get on their hands and knees.

This is not true at all. Gaudreau is on record saying that he would have signed anyways. I believe it was a spitting chiclets interview or another interview that is slipping my mind.

He was asked about Conroy flying in and if that made a difference. He said he would have signed either way.