[Signing] Rangers sign Adam Fox to 7 year extension ($9.5 mil AAV)

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A lot of money for a D. I like Makar better and he’s signed for less money (but less term). I’m a bit surprised they couldn’t jam him for a hometown discount considering he will only play there apparently.

Fox's contract takes up 4 UFA years. This is a hometown discount.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

How? If the CBA is changed once it is up for renewal, how would that be illegal?

You can't just put whatever terms you want in the CBA. The terms have to be legal in themselves. Coercing a person to sign a contract with a particular party isn't legal.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I get a kick out of the folks who stick to the whole "it isn't a loophole" argument when it comes to NCAA players.

Lol

Ok sure, the rule isn't different for them but the circumstances are. That makes them much more likely to wait it out and screw the team that drafted them.

It's an NCAA rule that creates the loophole, not the NHL.

The NCAA is the one who needs to allow their players to sign contracts before leaving.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Coach

It's an NCAA rule that creates the loophole, not the NHL.

The NCAA is the one who needs to allow their players to sign contracts before leaving.

True. And unfortunately, the NHL has no influence over the NCAA. Their rules are designed to milk the greatest possible revenue out of football and basketball players, and all other sports are an afterthought.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You can't just put whatever terms you want in the CBA. The terms have to be legal in themselves. Coercing a person to sign a contract with a particular party isn't legal.

What do you mean? Not sure how it is coercing if the NHLPA agrees to it. They can make the same rules apply to college players as it does for every other player drafted. How would this not be legal? You'll have to explain that to me.

[squiggs96]

Is it a huge problem? Are a significant number of draftees, that go to the NCAA for all four years, spurning their original teams?

2008 - R2 - Pick 43 - Justin Schultz - Anaheim -> Edmonton
2010 - R1 - Pick 24 - Kevin Hayes - Chicago -> NY Rangers
2012 - R2 - Pick 56 - Samuel Kurker - St. Louis -> Never played in NHL
2012 - R3 - Pick 66 - Jimmy Vesey - Nashville -> NY Rangers
2012 - R5 - Pick 150 - Alex Kerfoot - New Jersey -> Colorado
2013 - R5 - Pick 123 - Will Butcher - Colorado -> New Jersey
2013 - R6 - Pick 179 - Blaine Byron - Pittsburgh -> Never played in NHL
2016 - R3 - Pick 66 - Adam Fox - Calgary -> NY Rangers - Edit: As noted by stang, Fox did not wait until he was a UFA, and should not be included on this list.

That is the list of players I can find that spurned the team that drafted them after playing the four years in the NCAA to become a UFA. There are likely more, but insignificant players. Zach Hyman told Florida he wouldn't sign and his rights were traded to Toronto. He signed before becoming a UFA, so technically he isn't on the list.

So, what's left? Eight guys with an average draft position of 88th overall. Two of those guys didn't get NHL contracts. Fox is great. Hayes is good. The rest are pretty underwhelming for there to be this much outrage and debate. I would absolutely love it if Adam Fox were a Calgary Flames. I do not think there is a loophole. I don't think many people are taking advantage of it.

There are a substantially higher number of draft picks, that play in the NCAA and sign with the team that drafted them, than those who go the UFA route. Johnny Gaudreau, Cale Makar, Jack Eichel, Cole Caufield, Joe Pavelski, Brock Boeser, and Duncan Keith are all examples of players that were drafted, played in the NCAA, and signed with their original team. If players of this quality are still signing with their original teams, are you really getting upset because Will Butcher went to New Jersey? That just evened out Alex Kerfoot's deal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Fox's contract takes up 4 UFA years. This is a hometown discount.

Compared to Makar, it’s not. It makes him the 3rd highest paid Dman in the league, behind only a couple guys who aren’t worth the money. The UFA years mean pretty much nothing this year.

how much would you have paid him that’s not a discount?

[Reggie Dunlop]

I'm rather cross with him.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

What do you mean? Not sure how it is coercing if the NHLPA agrees to it. They can make the same rules apply to college players as it does for every other player drafted. How would this not be legal? You'll have to explain that to me.

No player is forced to sign a contract with the team that drafts him. And until he signs such a contract, he is neither an employee of a team nor a member of the PA, and therefore not a party to the CBA. Nor, as a non-member, did he have any say in the terms of the CBA, so he did not give his consent by that route.

The CBA can rightly say what terms the employer has to offer in an employment contract (since the employer IS a party to the CBA). It cannot compel anyone to accept an employment contract when offered. That's involuntary servitude, and though you may have missed it, it was outlawed some time ago.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

True. And unfortunately, the NHL has no influence over the NCAA. Their rules are designed to milk the greatest possible revenue out of football and basketball players, and all other sports are an afterthought.

So the NCAA can make rules to force their players to stay but the NHL can't make rules because that might be coercion? Yeah sorry, that is a poor argument.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No player is forced to sign a contract with the team that drafts him. And until he signs such a contract, he is neither an employee of a team nor a member of the PA, and therefore not subject to the CBA.

The CBA can rightly say what terms the employer has to offer in an employment contract. It cannot compel anyone to accept an employment contract when offered. That's involuntary servitude, and though you may have missed it, it was outlawed some time ago.

Nobody is saying "force" them but no other drafted player can become a UFA faster than a college player. You can easily fix that and it would be 100% legal.

I don't even care if they fix it but for you to say that would be illegal is ludicrous.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

So the NCAA can make rules to force their players to stay but the NHL can't make rules because that might be coercion? Yeah sorry, that is a poor argument.

Every player is free to drop out of college and quit the NCAA. There is no such rule as you speak of.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Every player is free to drop out of college and quit the NCAA. There is no such rule as you speak of.

I never claimed there was, you responded to a post that claimed that. I assumed it was true.

[Zoller]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No player is forced to sign a contract with the team that drafts him. And until he signs such a contract, he is neither an employee of a team nor a member of the PA, and therefore not a party to the CBA. Nor, as a non-member, did he have any say in the terms of the CBA, so he did not give his consent by that route.

The CBA can rightly say what terms the employer has to offer in an employment contract (since the employer IS a party to the CBA). It cannot compel anyone to accept an employment contract when offered. That's involuntary servitude, and though you may have missed it, it was outlawed some time ago.

Teams already hold the rights to players for however many years after drafting them. Could we just extend that timeframe to 5 years? Assuming the NHLPA agrees?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

What are we trying to fix, exactly? You can't force guys to sign with the teams who draft them. This is the way it has worked for all drafted prospects for decades.

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

I never claimed there was, you responded to a post that claimed that. I assumed it was true.

You're accusing me of making a poor argument, and putting words in my mouth to do it.

The NCAA cannot coerce players to remain in college. The NHL cannot coerce players to sign contracts.

Now, here is the post you were arguing with:

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

What are we trying to fix, exactly? You can't force guys to sign with the teams who draft them. This is the way it has worked for all drafted prospects for decades.

Scorpion's point is quite clear. The only way to make sure that no player fails to sign with the team that drafted him is to force every player to sign with the team that drafted him. And you can't do that.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Compared to Makar, it’s not. It makes him the 3rd highest paid Dman in the league, behind only a couple guys who aren’t worth the money. The UFA years mean pretty much nothing this year.

how much would you have paid him that’s not a discount?

He is easily worth $10 million. Pretty much any insider or hockey reporter is calling this a steal and I agree.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Zoller

Teams already hold the rights to players for however many years after drafting them. Could we just extend that timeframe to 5 years? Assuming the NHLPA agrees?

You could, but why would the NHLPA ever agree? They'd demand something very expensive in return. For instance, I'm sure they'd happily give up that fifth year if the NHL agreed to abolish the salary cap. Maybe they'd settle for abolishing escrow, so teams wind up paying far more than the agreed percentage of revenues in spite of the cap.

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You're accusing me of making a poor argument, and putting words in my mouth to do it.

The NCAA cannot coerce players to remain in college. The NHL cannot coerce players to sign contracts.

Now, here is the post you were arguing with:



Scorpion's point is quite clear. The only way to make sure that no player fails to sign with the team that drafted him is to force every player to sign with the team that drafted him. And you can't do that.

You can easily do that. Make a rule in the CBA that is bound by all laws and have the NHLPA agree to it.

Here's a simple rule that would be legal. You don't sign with the team who drafts you, you are not allowed to sign with any other NHL team for 3 years. That is legal and is a huge deterrent. You're not forcing anyone to do anything the same way the NCAA isn't forcing anyone to stay on their team.

To say it isn't fixable is simply not true.

Whether the NHL thinks it's even a problem is another story.

Personally I don't think it's a problem but if it was, it's easily fixable.

[Zoller]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You could, but why would the NHLPA ever agree? They'd demand something very expensive in return. For instance, I'm sure they'd happily give up that fifth year if the NHL agreed to abolish the salary cap. Maybe they'd settle for abolishing escrow, so teams wind up paying far more than the agreed percentage of revenues in spite of the cap.

Do you think the players consider it THAT much of a big deal though?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

He is easily worth $10 million. Pretty much any insider or hockey reporter is calling this a steal and I agree.

Yeah, no. It’s at best fair, considering his comps.