We didn't genocide the vikings, that's the difference.
However, I believe even ND now downplays the Fightin' Irish name and logo. Most often they just use Irish now with a cloverleaf, so this kind of political correctness isn't limited to cultures that we've systematically eradicated.
Fun fact:
Here is a picture of one of my mentors, the late, great Prof. Peter W. Flint:
When I first met Peter he still had a neckbeard. He did his PhD at the University of Notre Dame, and he would frequently joke with people that he got in on a scholarship to be the football team's mascot.
Miss you, Peter.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I'm just saying, my opinion like everyone else. I don't really care if you or anyone else has hurt feelings. I can read fine, but admittedly haven't read this entire thread...yet alone memorized it
A. You weren't just expressing an opinion - you were stating what you thought was a conclusion in logic. "If you do A you must do B". Which was rightly disputed.
B. Someone here has hurt feelings, but I doubt it's the guys suggesting you read a thread before making an argument which has been dealt with many times.
C. Your opinion isn't "like everyone else's". Not every opinion is equally valid on every topic and when one is based on flawed reasoning, it's perfectly valid to point it out.
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Are we really at the point now where any image such as an Indian headdress is offensive? If I was native I’d live to see that on a jersey. Redskins and the Atlanta Braves’ chop are offensive but a headdress. Give me a break.
But here's the big surprise. You're not. So it doesn't matter nearly as much what your opinion is.
That’s pretty silly. I don’t know where this whole “you must be part of the [insert group] to have an opinion” idea makes no sense.
I guess I’m not allowed to say racism is bad because I’m white or sexual assault is wrong because I’m a man.
When something only affects a certain group, it stands to reason that you actually need to be a part of that group to understand how it affects them. It’s not as easy as saying “If I was Black, the n-word wouldn’t bother meeeee!” You just end up looking like an idiot.
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That’s pretty silly. I don’t know where this whole “you must be part of the [insert group] to have an opinion” idea makes no sense.
I guess I’m not allowed to say racism is bad because I’m white or sexual assault is wrong because I’m a man.
Well, aside from the obvious overgeneralization and missing the point, you are using bad examples, since white people can be victims of racism and men can be sexual assault victims.
When something only affects a certain group, it stands to reason that you actually need to be a part of that group to understand how it affects them.
Demonstrably false.
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree
It’s not as easy as saying “If I was Black, the n-word wouldn’t bother meeeee!” You just end up looking like an idiot.
Outrageously stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
Well, aside from the obvious overgeneralization and missing the point, you are using bad examples, since white people can be victims of racism and men can be sexual assault victims.
Yikes. If you think white men suffer from racism and sexual abuse the same way as minorities and women, then we have nothing to discuss. Shockingly ignorant.
Yikes. If you think white men suffer from racism and sexual abuse the same way as minorities and women, then we have nothing to discuss. Shockingly ignorant.
Umm, I never said anything about amount. But travel to Japan as a white guy and see if there’s racism and ask Theo Fleury or a bunch of alterboys about sexual abuse.
But here's the big surprise. You're not. So it doesn't matter nearly as much what your opinion is.
i posted this a year or so ago in this thread....
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Originally Posted by bc-chris
all i can do is speak from my own experience of owning an embroidery company for 20 years. i have done countless jobs over the years for native sports teams and they love love LOVE using native themed logos from profession sports teams. these jobs have been for everyone from regular band members all the way up to high ranking band council members. i've actually made a point of asking them about using these "offensive" logos and the reaction is always something like a laugh followed by "we f***in' love these logos!"
now, i'm not saying that these encounters speak of all native peoples views on the matter, but in 20 years of doing work for native bands i've only met people that love the designs.
to add to my above quoted post - the blackhawks are a HUGE favourite of native teams. i've also done the redskins and atlanta braves logos for native teams.
i have a customer in winnipeg that does a ton of work with a number of native bands for "team wear" and again, pro sports logos using native imagery are still very very popular. lots of other team stuff that utilizes head dresses, dream catchers, etc.
these are not "my" opinions, but the opinions of the native sports teams ordering hats, toques, hoodies, jerseys, etc. they obviously like the logos becuz they get used by them a lot.
__________________ "...and there goes Finger up the middle on Luongo!" - Jim Hughson, Av's vs. 'Nucks
I think if you are Indigenous, using the symbols is fair game. I think sometimes (as in the case of native teams using Chief Wahoo), it's meant to be satirical or ironic. There have also been native teams using names like "Fighting Whities" and "Honkies", which I always took as a humorous way of pointing out the ridiculous situation of using indigenous symbols and caricatures. The sort of things stand-up comedians often do.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
That’s pretty silly. I don’t know where this whole “you must be part of the [insert group] to have an opinion” idea makes no sense.
I guess I’m not allowed to say racism is bad because I’m white or sexual assault is wrong because I’m a man.
But that wasn't my point. For the poster to say, "If I was a native" and then conclude that there's no issue is not as valid as an actual member of the group's opinion. And note I didn't say you can't have an opinion, just that under certain circumstances it's not as valid an opinion.
Unless you're suggesting that you, as a white male, can say sexual assault is not a big deal? That's the comparison here. You know, because all opinions are equal
to add to my above quoted post - the blackhawks are a HUGE favourite of native teams. i've also done the redskins and atlanta braves logos for native teams.
i have a customer in winnipeg that does a ton of work with a number of native bands for "team wear" and again, pro sports logos using native imagery are still very very popular. lots of other team stuff that utilizes head dresses, dream catchers, etc.
these are not "my" opinions, but the opinions of the native sports teams ordering hats, toques, hoodies, jerseys, etc. they obviously like the logos becuz they get used by them a lot.
Thanks for posting this again. And the important point is these are the opinions of those most affected, opinions that matter a lot more than mine on whether something is offensive to them.
Note I never said the logos you refer to are bad. Just that my opinion, or another white dude's opinion, doesn't matter as much.
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to add to my above quoted post - the blackhawks are a HUGE favourite of native teams. i've also done the redskins and atlanta braves logos for native teams.
i have a customer in winnipeg that does a ton of work with a number of native bands for "team wear" and again, pro sports logos using native imagery are still very very popular. lots of other team stuff that utilizes head dresses, dream catchers, etc.
these are not "my" opinions, but the opinions of the native sports teams ordering hats, toques, hoodies, jerseys, etc. they obviously like the logos becuz they get used by them a lot.
So the sample you are using for your generalization is "First Nations or indigenous people who come to my store who ask for the logo".
So the sample you are using for your generalization is "First Nations or indigenous people who come to my store who ask for the logo".
no - not at all. i've done/continue to do lots of work with local bands and band members for all sorts of occasions/events. the garments they are usually getting are embellished with the band's logo - so most of the time these people have nothing to do with sports/teams at all. it's a great opportunity to talk with them about this and many other topics.
__________________ "...and there goes Finger up the middle on Luongo!" - Jim Hughson, Av's vs. 'Nucks
A really good article on the history of this subject is
NICHOLS, ROGER L. "Indians and the Modern State, 1980s–Present." In Indians in the United States and Canada: A Comparative History, Second Edition, 397-420. Lincoln; London: University of Nebraska Press, 2018.
Quote:
While that action forced college teams to create new mascots, professional teams have refused to change their symbols. Demonstrators objected most forcefully to the caricatures of Indians, such as the Atlanta Braves’ “Chief Noc- A- Homa,” who came out of his tepee to dance whenever his team hit a home run, or to the “tomahawk chop,” which Braves fans shared with the Florida State Seminole supporters. The Cleveland Indians came under attack during their appearances in the 1991 and 1997 World Series because of their Chief Wahoo mascot. They and Daniel Snyder, owner of the Washington Redskins foot- ball team, have refused to adopt new names and mascots, although the latter team plays in Washington and has received sharp criticism from national political leaders. Despite the continuing objections to the team names, several polls claim that both Indians and others support the teams rather than the protestors. Nevertheless, the most recent poll conducted by Indian Country Today found that 81 percent of its respondents believed that Native American mascots were offensive. With that as background, in 2014 the federal Trademark Trial and Appeal Board cancelled the Washington Redskins’ trademarks, apparently hoping to reduce souvenir sales and pressure the team to change its mascot. The team owner refused and sued, but in 2015 a U.S. district court upheld the Trademark Board’s action.
In Canada this issue has not yet attracted the same level of public attention or degree of protests. Perhaps this is because there are fewer schools in Canada using such team logos. While Canadian sports associations have not spoken on this issue, it is receiving increased focus. In 2015 Justice Murray Sinclair, head of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, remarked that “sports teams with offensive names such as Redskins and cartoonish aboriginal- looking mascots have no place in a country trying to come to grips with racism in its past.” Since early in the twentieth century, some Canadian universities and secondary schools have taken action on this issue. The Department of Educational Foundations at the University of Saskatchewan called for changing the names of all school mascots that used First Nations images, and a few schools have done so. However, just as happened at the University of Illinois, students and alumni objected to the proposed changes. As recently as 2015, a student- led effort to change the Mohawks mascot in Medicine Hat, Alberta, brought a counterpetition signed by 1,500 people.17 That same year Natan Obed, president of the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, chided the Edmonton Eskimos foot- ball team for using a negative and unacceptable mascot and name
