2021/2022 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't feel I've ever given him a pass.

I'm just saying I didn't see the failure of the core coming, so I have a tough time blaming him for not seeing it.

But honestly ... enough of the extremes. Monahan getting hurt and a global pandemic are not accidentally handcuffing yourself.

And he’s not a puppeteer.

Don’t place me as supportive of arguing with extremes

The GM is mediocre. There is a problem with asset management and coach that has slowly eroded the asset base over years.

My view, as I said, is that his aggregated body of work, including strategic shortcomings, have affected his more recent ability to make improvements

I think it is perfectly reasonable to look back over the wasted years of the core and reason that a failure to get RW depth would reasonably impact the team’s on ice performance. The team that saw first hand that Backlund adjusting to wing was a negative. The team that with a glut of centres moved Lindholm from RW to C as well. At that point, why wouldn’t you look at trading one of your ‘more valuable position’ Cs for an upgrade on RW.

As for cap usage, pre paying Andersson leaves him with a lot to prove.

I am skeptical of the puck moving ability on the back end

How in the hell is it extreme to look at a whole bunch of factors that all contribute to underperformance?

To me, these things are barely even debatable

You know where players want to play? Somewhere with a chance to win.

If you believe Coleman, knowing what he knew about the coach he was going to play for was something he found attractive. He just said that the other day

Sutter sure didn’t have as much difficulty as a GM getting guys to play here.

I can not agree with the people that throw their hands up and say being a GM is hard. He is paying for many decisions he made that haven’t worked out.

That’s not extreme. It’s what has been happening right in front of us.

Players get hurt. Kucherov got hurt. Malkin missed games. Etc. Even when Gio tore his tricep under Hartley, the team didn’t fold its tent. All teams played through the pandemic. Those are excuses

[dino7c]

Brad won't get a pass in the end...if the team fails to make the playoffs or maybe even win a round he will be fired IMO.

Not going to worry about something that hasn't happened yet though...full roster has yet to play a game this season I think we should at least give the D a chance. As bad and mind bottling as the Gudbranson contract seems to be I don't see him playing much and being the make or break guy.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

And he’s not a puppeteer.

Don’t place me as supportive of arguing with extremes

The GM is mediocre. There is a problem with asset management and coach that has slowly eroded the asset base over years.

My view, as I said, is that his aggregated body of work, including strategic shortcomings, have affected his more recent ability to make improvements

I think it is perfectly reasonable to look back over the wasted years of the core and reason that a failure to get RW depth would reasonably impact the team’s on ice performance. The team that saw first hand that Backlund adjusting to wing was a negative. The team that with a glut of centres moved Lindholm from RW to C as well. At that point, why wouldn’t you look at trading one of your ‘more valuable position’ Cs for an upgrade on RW.

As for cap usage, pre paying Andersson leaves him with a lot to prove.

I am skeptical of the puck moving ability on the back end

How in the hell is it extreme to look at a whole bunch of factors that all contribute to underperformance?

To me, these things are barely even debatable

You know where players want to play? Somewhere with a chance to win.

If you believe Coleman, knowing what he knew about the coach he was going to play for was something he found attractive. He just said that the other day

Sutter sure didn’t have as much difficulty as a GM getting guys to play here.

I can not agree with the people that throw their hands up and say being a GM is hard. He is paying for many decisions he made that haven’t worked out.

That’s not extreme. It’s what has been happening right in front of us.

Players get hurt. Kucherov got hurt. Malkin missed games. Etc. Even when Gio tore his tricep under Hartley, the team didn’t fold its tent. All teams played through the pandemic. Those are excuses

I said your analogies were extreme. They still are.

Not liking Brad Treliving isn't extreme, and I have all the time in the day for a well thought out post that sits in opposition to my general thinking.

Every team has holes, all of them. Teams that draft and develop the best have a leg up on filling those holes, because you can't spend your way out of trouble.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Yup, as much as some fans want him gone now, this is his make-or-break year. Nothing was happening after the Colorado series, nor the Peters/bubble year. Last year was bad, so it could have been justified, but it isn't crazy to think that the all-Canadian, no fans year was not typical.

This year though, the target is on his back. Even though he cast doubt on the core with his comments around significant changes, the core is largely the same (except Gio, of course). I have been a defender of BT for the most part, but it is sink or swim time for this crew, as it should be.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I said your analogies were extreme. They still are.

Not liking Brad Treliving isn't extreme, and I have all the time in the day for a well thought out post that sits in opposition to my general thinking.

Every team has holes, all of them. Teams that draft and develop the best have a leg up on filling those holes, because you can't spend your way out of trouble.

The analogies were extreme? Accidentally self imposed handcuffs impacting a puppeteer’s ability to put on a great show? Sorry man, gotta roll my eyes on that. I just wanted to add a bit of colour.

Would you prefer Radiohead lyrics?
“You do it to yourself, you do. That’s what really hurts”
(But by you I would mean Treliving, not Bingo)

Could have quoted Boots or Hearts from the Hip - “I’m lying in the bed I’ve made” - but then again not everyone in town would probably agree

[Poe969]

It's been make it or brake it, won't get another pass, there'd better be results, for a few years now. The team has had more excuses than anything else.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I have heard this same #### every off season for the last 3 years. I am almost positive you made nearly the exact same post last year.

I agree with Shazam; a grade schooler (or random choice generator) probably would have consistently made better choices than Brad Treliving has over the last 7 years as GM. Low grade insult but the point remains. Abysmal performance over his tenure.

I agree but the key difference here is...

1. They are going to have a training camp and season with an actual proven NHL coach that has won at this level multiple times.

2. The sheer amount of pending UFAs with one of them being an actual core piece, in fact probably THE core piece up front.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Poe969

It's been make it or brake it, won't get another pass, there'd better be results, for a few years now. The team has had more excuses than anything else.

It was make it or break it after 2019? Don't think so.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Right but since that Avs series ended you've had

- one year suspended and a bubble series
- the next year played with no fans
- Caps frozen going forward
- two Monahan surgeries
- Gaudreau and Tkachuk having declining numbers

You haven't seen results for sure, can't argue that. But none of us has any idea what the plan has been or hasn't been in that time frame.

Not a huge leap to suggest moving big pieces in a cap environment with injury issues and sliding perforrmance might be challenging, and keeping the plan (whatever it is) from seeing day light.

We agree on the bolded.

I just can't get there on some of the reasons you're pointing out. Injuries? Flames on the positive side of that ledger. Flat cap? Should help well managed teams and hurt the Leafs of the world. No fans? Doesn't matter IMO. Declining players? Well that's the essence of what we're talking about. Hopefully the hockey ops organization has an understanding of what is behind it and what to do about it.

The job is hard. You need your GM to be better than the other guy just like you need your players and coach to be better than their opponent.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

We agree on the bolded.

I just can't get there on some of the reasons you're pointing out. Injuries? Flames on the positive side of that ledger. Flat cap? Should help well managed teams and hurt the Leafs of the world. No fans? Doesn't matter IMO. Declining players? Well that's the essence of what we're talking about. Hopefully the hockey ops organization has an understanding of what is behind it and what to do about it.

The job is hard. You need your GM to be better than the other guy just like you need your players and coach to be better than their opponent.

I wasn't saying the team had more injuries and therefore didn't perform. I'm saying the piece that they likely wanted to move had surgery and was coming off two off seasons making it hard to move the guy.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

A

You know where players want to play? Somewhere with a chance to win.

If you believe Coleman, knowing what he knew about the coach he was going to play for was something he found attractive. He just said that the other day

There is a reasonable chance that Coleman chose Calgary because they gave him the most money. He hasn't made a ton (by NHL standards) and this was his chance at a decent payday. He likely took it.

[Kipper_3434]

Jeez , how can anyone defend Treliving after losing our puck moving defence for nothing. I'm hopeful this team can exceed expectations but right now if the Flames miss the playoffs thats living up to expectations. IF we miss I think Tre is gone. He's done some okay work, but not enough to compensate for the talent we have lost and the salary wasted on Neal/brouwer/Lucic.

[neo45]

Brad looked like a good GM for about a one year stretch in between the Hamilton trade until he hired Gulutzan. Since then he has been laughably incompetent. Just look at the timeline of how Michael Stone is still on the team:

1. Brad makes a bad trade for Stone
2. Brad gives Stone a bad contract
3. Brad buyouts out the bad contract
4. Brad then keeps bringing Stone back LONGER than the bought out contract
5. After 5 seasons, 11 million dollars, two draft picks spent and one buyout Stone finally has his first good season with us and is a positive influence on our top prospect. Time to give his spot to Erik Gudbranson for 3x the cost

[Jiri Hrdina]

How is this a bad trade?
2017-Feb-20 Traded from Arizona Coyotes to Calgary Flames for round 3 pick in the 2017 draft (Stuart Skinner) and conditional round 5 pick in the 2018 draft

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How is this a bad trade?
2017-Feb-20 Traded from Arizona Coyotes to Calgary Flames for round 3 pick in the 2017 draft (Stuart Skinner) and conditional round 5 pick in the 2018 draft

Probably because he went from top 4 to a tweener

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by neo45

Brad looked like a good GM for about a one year stretch in between the Hamilton trade until he hired Gulutzan. Since then he has been laughably incompetent. Just look at the timeline of how Michael Stone is still on the team:

1. Brad makes a bad trade for Stone
2. Brad gives Stone a bad contract
3. Brad buyouts out the bad contract
4. Brad then keeps bringing Stone back LONGER than the bought out contract
5. After 5 seasons, 11 million dollars, two draft picks spent and one buyout Stone finally has his first good season with us and is a positive influence on our top prospect. Time to give his spot to Erik Gudbranson for 3x the cost

While I am pretty much done with Brad at this point it is so easy to refute this post I can’t help myself.

1. How is the Stone trade bad? They gave up a third and the team won 10 games in a row after the deal and made the playoffs as he solidified the top 4 at the time
2. Agree here it added a 5th to the deal and was a bad contract that was bought out
3. This has happened with Raymond, Stone, Brouwer, Bouma and has not been ideal
4. Stone as a minimum player has been more than fine
5. I feel like Gudbransen is purely a Sutter move. It has certainly been presented as such


Treliving made his best move in 2018 in my opinion making that Hurricanes trade but I am one of those fans who is annoyed and pissed that he hasn’t been able to make a sizable trade since and all major moves involve free agency/expansion where players are coming in and leaving for nothing.

2018- huge roster shakeup - best summer in Treliving’s career despite the one brutal move that was James Neal
2019- only moves are swapping bad contracts with the Oil and swapping Smith for Talbot. Famous Kadri no trade was also this summer
2020- all free agency - Talbot, Brodie, Hamonic out, Tanev, Markstrom in
2021 - basically all free agency again and picks for players. Gio, Ryan, and a bunch of minimum guys out, Coleman, Zadorov, Gudbransen and a bunch of minimum Sutter guys in.

To me it is really the last 2 offseason a that are not acceptable for me. This team has needed a shakeup that Brad simply can’t make because he overvalued his players and that overvaluing of players has resulted in the rebuild being sped up and ultimately failing.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

How is this a bad trade?
2017-Feb-20 Traded from Arizona Coyotes to Calgary Flames for round 3 pick in the 2017 draft (Stuart Skinner) and conditional round 5 pick in the 2018 draft

Two draft picks for a player with bad analytics we didn’t remotely need

For the right side we had Brodie, Hamilton, and Engelland. Arguably best in the league. Treliving wanted Brodie on the left because of how he held his stick


Also traded a second for Lazar at the same time and he didn’t even crack our lineup. Safe to say he had no clue what his team needed that trade deadline

[Bingo]

Oh man ... I may need to take a break from this site.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by neo45

Two draft picks for a player with bad analytics we didn’t remotely need

For the right side we had Brodie, Hamilton, and Engelland. Arguably best in the league. Treliving wanted Brodie on the left because of how he held his stick


Also traded a second for Lazar at the same time and he didn’t even crack our lineup. Safe to say he had no clue what his team needed that trade deadline

Do you remember the 2017 season? Wideman couldn’t hack it in the top 4. They trade for Stone and they win 10 straight. The re-signing was a mistake especially after spending assets on Hamonic at the draft but the move at the time is the best rental Treliving has made

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Oh man ... I may need to take a break from this site.

Because people challenge your list of excuses for Treliving?

Pandemic - every GM had to deal with this

Injuries - we were literally the healthiest team in the entire league last year

Injuries can be used as an excuse for why and individual player has a bad season, not for a team. All teams go through them and the good ones adjust. We have been remarkably healthy during his tenure. The only thing that handcuffed Treliving this offseason is his poor decision making in the past