Net loser and winners in Confederation

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

So when the oil eventually runs out in Alberta, you won't be expecting any "prop up" then I take it?



Where's the disconnect?

I could counter your 5 people by a tonne. There are tonnes of people here that move out west to work. and then leave their families here b/c that is where there family is and is from. They work year round in Alta, and then make trips back to visit, send money back, etc. There are a tonne of people that do that. Are there people that just go out and work for the summer? yup. Are some of them lazy? Sure, those type of people are in every province. Do some come back because they honestly miss their family, their homes, etc that much? You betcha.

When the oil runs out, Alberta deserves no hand outs. They should save up enough money to transition into other things. But don't hold your breath, there's about 200 years worth sitting around. The planet will substitue oil before we run out.

I'm friends with many people that you refer to that move out east, they believe you should go to where the jobs are. Like me and every other economist. Further polarizing the country. My point isn't about lazy easterners ... it's about the policty. I've been to Halifax many times, and outside of a certian evil utility company out there, I think downtown Halifax is fun, exciting, people are well educated and engaging. I just think the transfer payment program of unconditionally funnelling money west to east is awful.

[Sparks]

Posted by CrusaderPi:
Albertans, for three generations, have worked their collective asses off to earn this wealth.

Absolutely, and that point shouldn't be discounted. But, how about this example:

Bob was born into a wealthy family, and as a result, was able to attend a prestigious and expensive university, from which he got his master's degree. Josh was born into a family who couldn't afford to pay for him to recieve a post-secondary education, and he had to work to help support the family. Both are equally hard workers, but Bob makes considerably more money, since he has his master's degree.

It's pretty obvious that Josh isn't lazy, and Bob should realize that a considerable amount of his success is a result of being born into a well-off family.

I think it would just be nice if we Albertans recognized how lucky we are, and quit our obsession with pointing fingers and making silly generalizations.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Would you pick up, tomorrow, or in a week let's say, to move to the maritimes b/c hypothetically sometime in the future that is where all the jobs are?

Not in a week, but over a couple years yes. Because it is the right thing to do.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Sparks

Absolutely, and that point shouldn't be discounted. But, how about this example:

Bob was born into a wealthy family, and as a result, was able to attend a prestigious and expensive university, from which he got his master's degree. Josh was born into a family who couldn't afford to pay for him to recieve a post-secondary education, and he had to work to help support the family. Both are equally hard workers, but Bob makes considerably more money, since he has his master's degree.

It's pretty obvious that Josh isn't lazy, and Bob should realize that a considerable amount of his success is a result of being born into a well-off family.

I think it would just be nice if we Albertans recognized how lucky we are, and quit our obsession with pointing fingers and making silly generalizations.

I think most people with your viewpoint can't separate the difference of being critical with an economic policy and being critical of people.

when people hate the transfer program it has nothing to do with people. It has to do with the practicality and 'utility' of a program.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

No, Canada won the lottery, now Canada needs resources to properly leverage it. See the transfer program polarizes the country (evidence is who is happy about the stupid program ... all it does is create resentment)

You won't find a single economist on this planet that will tell you that artificially proping up a region, without a long term goal whereby the province turns a corner (btw, like alberta did) is good for a country.

Again, it promotes ineffiency and underutilization, to use economist terms.

Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree then...I prefer to bring in a bit of a human equation into things; everything shouldn't be analyzed solely from an "economist" point of view.

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Not in a week, but over a couple years yes. Because it is the right thing to do.

In a couple of years? So who is going to keep you going for that couple of years .

[Sparks]

Originally posted by Flames in 07: I think most people with your viewpoint can't separate the difference of being critical with an economic policy and being critical of people.

when people hate the transfer program it has nothing to do with people. It has to do with the practicality and 'utility' of a program.

My post was written in response to backhanded comments made in this thread, not as support for the program as it stands.

[Flames in 07]

Nobody would move on a weeks notice.

We obviously do agree to disagree, I'd just point out it is easy to not take the economist point of view if your household hasn't paid 40k in the last 10 years into this program. With nothing in return. I don't know about your situation in particular, but buying into this thing versus taking money out might slant your view as to how 'human' this issue is.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Nobody would move on a weeks notice.

We obviously do agree to disagree, I'd just point out it is easy to not take the economist point of view if your household hasn't paid 40k in the last 10 years into this program. With nothing in return. I don't know about your situation in particular, but buying into this thing versus taking money out might slant your view as to how 'human' this issue is.

Sorry, I don't get it?

I guess I must be an even out person then - as I have paid all this money into equalization, and now apparently I am reaping the excesses of it ? Again I am exaggerating things a bit, but still. I just don't get it. Equalization is there to provide the approx same level of services at the approx same level of taxation across the country. Is it perfect? Nope. But is it ok then to make people in one province pay 10 bucks to go to school, and in another 1000? To me, no. But I guess they will all move to the 10 buck place, however.

(nobody would move with a weeks notice? There are a fair number of people that have. Most have followed your logic. They look for a job...look look...all the sudden a company from the west will tell them they have a job, but they have to move out there asap. There are people from here, with families left behind, that have moved out west to start work in under a week).

[Flames in 07]

I'm not talking about you in particular. I'm just saying people paying into the system vs taking out would bias their view. Kinda a simple ... and obvious comment isn't it?

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I'm not talking about you in particular. I'm just saying people paying into the system vs taking out would bias their view. Kinda a simple ... and obvious comment isn't it?

If we apply that logic, then isn;'t your view fairly biased ?

[Flames in 07]

Of course. And being an economist it is further biased. I got some bad news for anyone who thinks any of their views aren't biased.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Of course. And being an economist it is further biased. I got some bad news for anyone who thinks any of their views aren't biased.

Yup, and acknowledging that bias is the central part of it. Which is to me, anyways, why you need people from all backgrounds etc involved. I may not agree with your comments a lot of the time, but I appreciate the discussion .

Anywho, there's my CP suck up for the day.

[Flames in 07]

You make me all misty like that picture you use, it's always good discussion talking about the transfer program, so long as nobody takes it personal, it's just financial policy. l8r.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

So when the oil eventually runs out in Alberta, you won't be expecting any "prop up" then I take it?

You've got a short memory. Remember the NEP in the early 80's? Remember the recession in the early 90's? Alberta spent over ten years wandering in the economic winter and we still payed out. Oil may have turned Alberta into a Canadian economic power, but we survived when the industry was dead.

[HOZ]

I'm sorry but it is about the choice people make.

Take the People Republik of Saskatchewan versus Alberta. Hell BC as well.

PTOS is as resource rich as Alberta yet the continue to elect morons that tax the crap out of everything and everyone, and still can't even pave their damn highways. But geewiz they have cheaper liquor at the goverment owned liquor stores than Alberta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Everybody has an excuse. It's all Alberta's fault for being successful? Sorry but the Maritimes, yes had been screwed over, but what is their excuse now?? They are right beside the biggest economic engine in the world and have ports facing the 2nd largest one. They are surrounded by resources. Yet they keep electing officials that have no better idea other than to go to the federal government begging for more hand outs like a crack junky. Considering that it is one of the most beautiful places inthe world (told to me by peole who have visited there) one wonders what the problem is.

[RedHot25]

I don;t know Hoz; its interesting though that its a Conservative begging for more transfer money down here at the momment....

[Flames in 07]

Well their problems aren't as simple as voting in idiots, although they do have a knack of doing that, especially in NFLD.

But in the second half of Ralph's term I'd say he was an idiot to. But what do you do, vote in a liberal.

The biggest problem in the Maritimes is that their traditional industries are dead. They've died in the last 20 years not not much has replaced it.

They don't have the second largest commercially viable oil reserve on earth, like Alberta has, they have a bit of nat gas and liquids, but it is off shore, costly to produce, expensive to deliver to markets and so far production has been less than exciting, especially for NS. The problem isn't that they suck and that they are stupid, it is that they get hand outs so why move? Why not just take pogey checks for a good part of the year and gravy train the west if they can't find a good job or the area can't develop industry. The problem is that Ottawa has created a system that rewards underutilization.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I don;t know Hoz; its interesting though that its a Conservative begging for more transfer money down here at the momment....

Though, I can't claim to have intimate knowledge with what you speak of. I'd say that is a conservative in name only.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Though, I can't claim to have intimate knowledge with what you speak of. I'd say that is a conservative in name only.

?

Rodney MacDonald, Conservative Premiere of N.S. Took over from John Hamm, another Conservative Premiere of N.S.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I don;t know Hoz; its interesting though that its a Conservative begging for more transfer money down here at the momment....

And a federalist in Quebec is still pitting Quebec City against Ottawa. Leaders pander to their populations wants if they wish to remain popular.

One nice thing about the Maritimes is that some enterprising people out there are attempting to help create more jobs. There are factories out there that are starting to produce equipment for the O&G industry in Alberta. Turning Alberta's wealth into an opportunity for the Maritimes. That is what these regions need - enterprising people looking to take advantage of the situation in a positive way.