Net loser and winners in Confederation

[Maritime Q-Scout]

lets not forget that Nova Scotia didn't want to join confederation, then did and had our money leave to go out West.

Now that we need a helping hand we're saying that it's bad and shouldn't be?

I made a post a number of month ago about Nova Scotia's diversification back at the turn of the 1900's. Steel, Coal, Fishery, while coal was an input to steel they weren't so dependant on each other that was effected on devistated the other. Sydney Steel could have kept operating without Devco Coal.

Regardless, all those industries collapsed at roughly the same time.

But Nova Scotia would be cut loose because we're a drain on the system, and taking hard working Albertans money from the tar sands.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Sorry, I don't get it?

So, me, the "lazy grad student with funding", and my wife "the lazy person with a grad degree working in the hospital here" moved here to be lazy sponges ?

I know thats not exactly what you are saying, but I find it a bit silly.

An unfortunate reality for the maritimes is that a large portion of their revenue/budget depends upon that $$. You may claim dependency, just cut back on your expenses etc...but the scary part is if they did, there would be even less services here and/or they would be more expensive. For e.g., nova scotia has one of the highest (I think top 2 or 3) tuition in the country. Also, the prov gov't here has stated that they may have to cut back a lot if they get less transfer etc payments. You may say fine, so be it, cut back on expenses and unnecessary things. The thing is, though, that a lot of these things - hospital funding etc - are necessary.

Not saying that there is not lazy people out here, but there are also lazy people in Alberta as well. I'm originally from Alberta, and have lived down here for the past year or 2.

Not, cut back on expenses, freakin move to where the jobs are. Clearly that region cannot support that population that is there. Rather than artifically prop up an entire region and subsideize everyones quality of life, just encourage everyone to move where the jobs are. Makes for a more productive country. Every economist on earth would tell you that is about as simple a concept as 1+1.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

As he mentioned, Oil exists in provinces other than Alberta as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

Offshore revenue and the Atlantic Accords

Then there's the question of offshore oil and gas reserves. In 1964, changes were made so that the resources a province had were added to the equation. As a result, Alberta's oil and gas bumped up the province's revenues enough that it no longer qualified for payments.

Before 1964, Alberta collected equalization for seven years, giving the province's oil and gas industries a chance to grow. Newfoundland and Nova Scotia want the same opportunity.

Normally, under the equalization scheme, for every dollar increase in a province's treasury, its equalization payments go down a dollar. However, if a province loses a dollar for every dollar it makes from the sale of its energy reserves, there's no incentive to develop them at all.

That's why, in 1994, the federal government implemented the "generic solution" under which Ottawa takes back 70 cents in equalization for every dollar in energy royalties. The deal applies only to Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Quebec and Saskatchewan.

But besides the generic solution, Ottawa has other deals with Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland and Labrador, known informally as the Atlantic Accords to protect them from the loss of equalization payments while their petroleum industries developed:

• The Canada-Newfoundland Atlantic Accord, signed in 1985.
• The Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord, signed in 1986.

Both agreements state that the province may tax the offshore resources as if they were on land and the provinces owned them outright. Because the resources are offshore, they legally belong to the federal government. By contrast, Alberta owns its oil reserves outright because they are on land and under provincial jurisdiction.

The Nova Scotia deal offers 10 years of protection from reduction in equalization payments. The deal initially began in 1993-94, but the protection start date was later changed to 2000-01, giving Nova Scotia protection until the 2010-11 fiscal year.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Nobody won the lottery. Albertans, for three generations, have worked their collective asses off to earn this wealth. Now contrast that to provinces that are net sponges in confederation who have sat on their collective asses for three generations, yet still receive wealth.

You think the oil stops at the border? Maybe that's how they decided to partition Alberta and Saskatchewan. Speaking of oil in places not named Alberta, hows that offshore oil industry doing out east?

It doesn't stop at the border, but Alberta has exponentially more oil, combined with a good 30 years head-start. Canadian geologists had been unsuccessful in finding any major oil reserves in Saskatchewan until 1953. If our positions were reversed and commercial oil development in Alberta was not viable until the 1950s and our reserves were significantly smaller than those of our neighbours, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be the economic powerhouse that we are today. Part of our success is hard work, sure. But it has more to do with our geology than our culture.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Hakan

So Alberta didn't win the lottery by having a virtual goldmine in their backyard?

And Albertans should be applauded for working hard and harvesting that gold mine? All's fair I guess. But I mean, those potato farmers out in PEI work just as hard as oil patch workers only they can't sell their potatoes for $50 a kilo.

Every person I know in PEI (admittantly only 5 of them) work during the summer and ride the pogey train in the winter ... because they can. 5 Isn't representative, I know, but I would surprise me if any other province comes close to Alberta in terms of hours worked per able person, and it would blow the he// out of me if PEI lead the country. There are hard working people everywhere, but let's face it, some people think that it is their right to simply sit on UI if the need arises.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Not, cut back on expenses, freakin move to where the jobs are. Clearly that region cannot support that population that is there. Rather than artifically prop up an entire region and subsideize everyones quality of life, just encourage everyone to move where the jobs are. Makes for a more productive country. Every economist on earth would tell you that is about as simple a concept as 1+1.

Well that's really what's happening, isn't it?

But at the same time, can you blame some for not wanting to go? Whose going to pay them to move? What about families? People who have lived here all their lives? We might as well just close up shop down here, make everyone move and not let them back in .

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Every person I know in PEI (admittantly only 5 of them) work during the summer and ride the pogey train in the winter ... because they can. 5 Isn't representative, I know, but I would surprise me if any other province comes close to Alberta in terms of hours worked per able person, and it would blow the he// out of me if PEI lead the country. There are hard working people everywhere, but let's face it, some people think that it is their right to simply sit on UI if the need arises.

You are going to make that statement based on 5 people?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Well that's really what's happening, isn't it?

But at the same time, can you blame some for not wanting to go? Whose going to pay them to move? What about families? People who have lived here all their lives? We might as well just close up shop down here, make everyone move and not let them back in .

Slowly its happening, but we still incent people to stay and be underutilized.

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to move ... I don't want to move anywhere else ... in Canada anyways. But it's not about what they want. It's about what is best for the country.

As for who will pay them to move ... generally that is subsidized by the employer, and I get moving from families is hard but is it really fair for people from Ontario and Alberta to pay them off so they can be underutilized and hang out with their families? If they don't want to move no matter what, fine, but don't encourage them to stay by artificially propping them up.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Not, cut back on expenses, freakin move to where the jobs are. Clearly that region cannot support that population that is there. Rather than artifically prop up an entire region and subsideize everyones quality of life, just encourage everyone to move where the jobs are. Makes for a more productive country. Every economist on earth would tell you that is about as simple a concept as 1+1.

here's the neat thing about human beings, there are other factors in life other than economics.

My family is in the Maritimes, ergo I want to be in the Maritimes. Should I deprive myself of the people I care about because there's more jobs in Calgary?

That doesn't seem to make too much sense to me.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

You are going to make that statement based on 5 people?

Which statement. I didn't say all PEI people do this, but I will guess that Albertian work a he// of alot harder on average. You want to dispute that? We can try and dig it out of statcan ... but I bet it will be ugly.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

s for who will pay them to move ... generally that is subsidized by the employer, and I get moving from families is hard but is it really fair for people from Ontario and Alberta to pay them off so they can be underutilized and hang out with their families? If they don't want to move no matter what, fine, but don't encourage them to stay by artificially propping them up.

Pay them off?

Look yes there are lazy people. But I have seen just as many lazy people, shockingly, in Alberta as well (I have actually spent most of my life in Alberta). Are there people that abuse EI? Yup, here and out west. Are there people who use EI legitimately and for its intended purposes? Yup, here and out west as well. Its just hard, because you can't just "go and get another job" out here.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

here's the neat thing about human beings, there are other factors in life other than economics.

My family is in the Maritimes, ergo I want to be in the Maritimes. Should I deprive myself of the people I care about because there's more jobs in Calgary?

That doesn't seem to make too much sense to me.

Easy to say when you haven't your household hasn't paid about 40,000 in transfers in the last 10 years.

If people want to live with their families by choice in NS or NFLD, fine, my point ... again, is that they should be financially encouraged, or artificially propped up to do it.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Pay them off?

Look yes there are lazy people. But I have seen just as many lazy people, shockingly, in Alberta as well (I have actually spent most of my life in Alberta). Are there people that abuse EI? Yup, here and out west. Are there people who use EI legitimately and for its intended purposes? Yup, here and out west as well. Its just hard, because you can't just "go and get another job" out here.

I know its hard ... that's my point. Those five people CANT find jobs in the winter ... not that they sit around and drink beer.

They CANT find jobs.

yet in AB we are screaming for people for all kinds of work. And the transfer program promotes this ongoing disconnect. Get it?

It's not about lazy people, it's about solving a problem in both the east and the west.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Which statement. I didn't say all PEI people do this, but I will guess that Albertian work a he// of alot harder on average. You want to dispute that? We can try and dig it out of statcan ... but I bet it will be ugly.

Well i just found it kind of weird that you say "well its only 5 people i know, BUT...".

Anyways, yah Albertans are crazy hard workers. You can dig out the stats if you want. Are you also going to deduct all of the extra time etc that the maritimers out there working are putting in?

Look, I am a born and bread Albertan...will make the province my home when I move back. But I just don't get the (and yes I am generalizing here, I know) "its mine...all mine..." attitude sometimes. They need our help, why not help them, without getting grumpy at them? It really befuddles me.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Well i just found it kind of weird that you say "well its only 5 people i know, BUT...".

Anyways, yah Albertans are crazy hard workers. You can dig out the stats if you want. Are you also going to deduct all of the extra time etc that the maritimers out there working are putting in?

Look, I am a born and bread Albertan...will make the province my home when I move back. But I just don't get the (and yes I am generalizing here, I know) "its mine...all mine..." attitude sometimes. They need our help, why not help them, without getting grumpy at them? It really befuddles me.

So we can help by offering jobs ... and all be lucky that we can have all the work we want inside our own country. Or we can promote inefficiency and underutilization by sending trains full of money from west to east ... not solving any problems, just throwing money at something so things aren't "That bad" out east.

[Hakan]

Not to mention there are very significant economic efficiency arguments in favour of equalization.

It just doesn't make sense to have vast disparities in services across the federation, economically speaking.

Canada's equalization system is the envy of the world. Policy analysts from all over the world come to Canada to study it. Some Albertans with their 'high horse' attitude make me sick. You won the natural resource lottery.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Easy to say when you haven't your household hasn't paid about 40,000 in transfers in the last 10 years.

If people want to live with their families by choice in NS or NFLD, fine, my point ... again, is that they should be financially encouraged, or artificially propped up to do it.

So when the oil eventually runs out in Alberta, you won't be expecting any "prop up" then I take it?

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I know its hard ... that's my point. Those five people CANT find jobs in the winter ... not that they sit around and drink beer.

They CANT find jobs.

yet in AB we are screaming for people for all kinds of work. And the transfer program promotes this ongoing disconnect. Get it?

It's not about lazy people, it's about solving a problem in both the east and the west.

Where's the disconnect?

I could counter your 5 people by a tonne. There are tonnes of people here that move out west to work. and then leave their families here b/c that is where there family is and is from. They work year round in Alta, and then make trips back to visit, send money back, etc. There are a tonne of people that do that. Are there people that just go out and work for the summer? yup. Are some of them lazy? Sure, those type of people are in every province. Do some come back because they honestly miss their family, their homes, etc that much? You betcha.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Not to mention there are very significant economic efficiency arguments in favour of equalization.

It just doesn't make sense to have vast disparities in services across the federation, economically speaking.

Canada's equalization system is the envy of the world. Policy analysts from all over the world come to Canada to study it. Some Albertans with their 'high horse' attitude make me sick. You won the natural resource lottery.

No, Canada won the lottery, now Canada needs resources to properly leverage it. See the transfer program polarizes the country (evidence is who is happy about the stupid program ... all it does is create resentment)

You won't find a single economist on this planet that will tell you that artificially proping up a region, without a long term goal whereby the province turns a corner (btw, like alberta did) is good for a country.

Again, it promotes ineffiency and underutilization, to use economist terms.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by octothorp

It doesn't stop at the border, but Alberta has exponentially more oil, combined with a good 30 years head-start. Canadian geologists had been unsuccessful in finding any major oil reserves in Saskatchewan until 1953. If our positions were reversed and commercial oil development in Alberta was not viable until the 1950s and our reserves were significantly smaller than those of our neighbours, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be the economic powerhouse that we are today. Part of our success is hard work, sure. But it has more to do with our geology than our culture.

So Saskatchewan has known of major reserves for 54 years, yet hasnt fully developed them? I'm sorry, but that is a remarkably weak excuse. Hell, Leduc #1 wasnt struck until the late 1940s, wasnt it?

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Again, it promotes ineffiency and underutilization, to use economist terms.

Would you pick up, tomorrow, or in a week let's say, to move to the maritimes b/c hypothetically sometime in the future that is where all the jobs are?