Brad Treliving needs to go

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Are we supposed to guess what the GM's on that chart have in common or something? People that have never been in my kitchen?

Nope, like I said, it's just info for the discussion.

I suppose the lesson may be that there's some guys on there that we are convinced are idiots who have great records, and some who we think are great that have worse records than Treliving. Both regular and post season.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yes I would.
We also don't know what he has been offered. My point is that we agree that there is a point where the return is poor enough that the right call is NOT to trade him.

Yes, I agree with that of course. But there are 31 other GMs in the league. And Monahan isn't the only tradable player.

The other GMs can't all be lowballing the Flames on every core player. They are competing with each other to improve their teams too, and they will outbid each other to do so. That doesn't mean they'll overpay either, but between the 31 teams there has to be some fair offers for some Flames core players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

So you're saying the only fair offer for these players is at their former maximum value? Is that what you think a Flames GM needs to hold out for?

I'm saying their value today is what it is, and you move on from there. Wishing that the value was at it's former maximum will never let you move forward.

Or you hold.

You let some value come back from rock bottom.

I think it very likely that Tkachuk and Gaudreau bounce back on a line with Lindholm.

And if Monahan's surgery went well maybe he'll take a step back towards a healthier stat line this season.

Then you readdress it next summer.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm literally on record as voting that he should be fired, and my reason is solely because of a 7 year lack of success.

However, I dislike reflexive or untrue criticisms and arguments, and I'm prepared to debate things that he did that are arguable, either pro or con.

It's almost like there's nuance to being an NHL GM.

Do you believe the lack of success over the seven years is attributable to him? Based on your arguments, you don't seem to. If not, why make him the fall guy and run the risk of hiring someone worse?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Or you hold.

You let some value come back from rock bottom.

I think it very likely that Tkachuk and Gaudreau bounce back on a line with Lindholm.

And if Monahan's surgery went well maybe he'll take a step back towards a healthier stat line this season.

Then you readdress it next summer.

Even if they all bounce back, then next summer Monahan has 1 year to UFA, Gaudreau is a UFA and Tkachuk is an RFA with 9M qualifying offer that he can accept and become a UFA in 1 year. Will their values really be higher a year from now even if they do bounce back?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Even if they all bounce back, then next summer Monahan has 1 year to UFA, Gaudreau is a UFA and Tkachuk is an RFA with 9M qualifying offer that he can accept and become a UFA in 1 year. Will their values really be higher a year from now even if they do bounce back?

Honestly in a tight cap world sometimes less term is more valuable.

But yeah you constantly have to assess that.

I just don't want a GM thinking he ever has to move an asset period. You have a line in the sand that you won't cross, and you don't cross it.

[nieuwy-89]

Treliving and Sutter are setting the team up to have an "us against the world" mentality. Everyone is writing them off, saying they are a bunch of post-apex losers. I think this will be hugely motivating to all of them.

The additions they have made will make them a bigger, tougher, more truculent team. I'm looking forward to that.

I would have liked to see Johnny signed to an extension, but it hasn't happened. As a fan, the upside of that is that he will be playing for his next contract. He will be hungry.

Mangiapane is coming off of a transformative World Championship where he almost single-handedly willed Team Canada to a Gold Medal. He is also chasing his next contract. He will be confident, and hungry.

As for Francis' article, I'm just happy to finally see some Flames news and start getting excited for the season. Great to hear the team is 100% vaccinated and Monahan's recovery has gone well.

I'm ready. The Flames are ready. Let's go!!!!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Do you believe the lack of success over the seven years is attributable to him? Based on your arguments, you don't seem to. If not, why make him the fall guy and run the risk of hiring someone worse?

Some of the lack of success is due to his mistakes, some isn’t. But it’s a results league. And he’s the guy in charge. It comes with the territory. So I accept he can take the fall even if I don’t think every thing that goes wrong is his fault.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Honestly in a tight cap world sometimes less term is more valuable.

But yeah you constantly have to assess that.

I just don't want a GM thinking he ever has to move an asset period. You have a line in the sand that you won't cross, and you don't cross it.

I agree with this. I’m just not confident in Treliving’s ability to draw the line at the appropriate spot.

[Roof-Daddy]

I am actually getting more and more optimistic as we get closer to the start of the season.

Still some skill at the top of the forward group, and a lot of lunch pail at the bottom of the forward group. The D doesn't have much offensive flair though, they will need to produce as a group. They should be strong defensively though, and the team overall is on the bigger and meaner side.

With Sutter coaching a defensively capable team the goaltending should be solid.

But, it's the Flames, so I won't be the least bit surprised if they trample my optimism into oblivion by the 20-30 game mark.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Some of the lack of success is due to his mistakes, some isn’t. But it’s a results league. And he’s the guy in charge. It comes with the territory. So I accept he can take the fall even if I don’t think every thing that goes wrong is his fault.

So change for the sake of it? Or do you feel he hasn’t done his job well enough such that you’d prefer to take your chances with a new person?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I am actually getting more and more optimistic as we get closer to the start of the season.

Still some skill at the top of the forward group, and a lot of lunch pail at the bottom of the forward group. The D doesn't have much offensive flair though, they will need to produce as a group. They should be strong defensively though, and the team overall is on the bigger and meaner side.

With Sutter coaching a defensively capable team the goaltending should be solid.

But, it's the Flames, so I won't be the least bit surprised if they trample my optimism into oblivion by the 20-30 game mark.

There was a good article in the Athletic about Hanifin who believes with Gio gone he can hit another level and become that #1 D man he was projected to be. That would help the season immensely.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I mean Treliving has delivered absolutely nothing. If you have a different view of the sky not being blue, it doesn't make sense. Same as still defending Treliving, to me it makes no sense, it's not logical. You can add all sorts of caveats how he's had misfortunes with signings or been unlucky but every GM is in the same boat with that.



And by the way astroturfing is absolutely a thing. You can think it's silly to think it exists but it happens everywhere.

I understand the concept and believe it happens, but, saying it happens everywhere seems like an exaggeration. Do you have some examples?

[MrMike]

At least we finally have a real coach and a real goal tender. No more what if’s or what could be. This season is going to be great one way or another. Either they succeed or it’s time for a rebuild. I can realistically see us finishing first or second in our division, or 5th/6th just as easy.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Some of the lack of success is due to his mistakes, some isn’t. But it’s a results league. And he’s the guy in charge. It comes with the territory. So I accept he can take the fall even if I don’t think every thing that goes wrong is his fault.

That’s fair but after 7 years, this is the team that he built. If the team can not win because of the core/chemistry, it’s 100% his fault. He basically doesn’t have what it takes to build a proper team to win. Regardless, he has one more year to prove it.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by blender

I understand the concept and believe it happens, but, saying it happens everywhere seems like an exaggeration. Do you have some examples?

Just google "astroturfing examples" and you'll find plenty. Twitter/social media is especially a cesspool regarding this. I've been personally involved with a campaign here in Mexico, it's pretty dirty although seemed pretty business as usual here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So change for the sake of it? Or do you feel he hasn’t done his job well enough such that you’d prefer to take your chances with a new person?

I suppose a bit of both. But it would not shock me if he went elsewhere and had more success. I suppose, like the Eichel trade, or burning it all down, it’s a move they can make.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

But in the case of a guy like Monahan where there is a diagnosed medical problem, do you sell him at his low point, or do you take the chance that he rebounds.

To be more pointed - would you trade him if the return was a 2nd round pick

Suppose they were offered a second round pick for Monahan. If you were able to parlay that second rounder into Pavel Buchnevich, that makes such a deal more palatable.

Now we don’t know if Sammy Blais (who was part of the Buchnevich deal) was a throw in or if the Rangers really wanted him. If the latter, probably a hard deal for Treliving to consummate as I don’t know if we have a blais comparable in our system. Is Monahan a better fit in Sutter’s system than Buchnevich? Probably. But would this deal have shaken up the core? Without a doubt. And that’s what most of us were looking for.

[bax]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Suppose they were offered a second round pick for Monahan. If you were able to parlay that second rounder into Pavel Buchnevich, that makes such a deal more palatable.

Now we don’t know if Sammy Blais (who was part of the Buchnevich deal) was a throw in or if the Rangers really wanted him. If the latter, probably a hard deal for Treliving to consummate as I don’t know if we have a blais comparable in our system. Is Monahan a better fit in Sutter’s system than Buchnevich? Probably. But would this deal have shaken up the core? Without a doubt. And that’s what most of us were looking for.

I think it’s pretty clear that Blais was targeted by the Rangers. He isn’t a prospect. After the whole Tom Wilson fiasco look who they went out and grabbed (and paid significant prices to do it):

Patrick Nemeth
Jarred Tinordi
Sammy Blais
Barclays Goodrow
Ryan Reaves

Whole lot of truculence on that list

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I suppose a bit of both. But it would not shock me if he went elsewhere and had more success. I suppose, like the Eichel trade, or burning it all down, it’s a move they can make.

Honestly from most of your arguments defending Treliving, I'm surprised you believe the organization would be better off firing him.