[News] Upd: Canadian NHL Teams to require proof of vaccination to attend any arena events

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't believe that is accurate. Here is excerpt from the National Constitution Center.

"However, the broad powers held by states to control vaccine policy can also be used by state governments to block vaccine mandates, in certain situations, at lower government levels and in the private sector. As of August 2, at least 14 states had enacted Covid-19 related laws that barred employer vaccine mandates, school vaccine mandates, or vaccine passports."

No, that’s precisely what I was saying. States (as opposed to local government) were held to hold the power. So they can impose mandates or block mandates from lower governments (or arguably federal mandates if they intrude on state power). It wasn’t a human rights challenge - it was a states right challenge. In Canada, of course, such powers are differently allocated.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

The organization is discriminating against them by not allowing them to attend events. Also, for whatever freedoms and choice are worth these days, people who choose not to get a vaccine but test negative should have the right to attend. People with vaccines can still contract Covid, so if they're not tested they could technically be carrying it whereas the non-vaccinated person who is confirmed negative is definitely not carrying it.

So, why not just get vaccinated ahead of time and get your second dose at the specified time rather than have to get tested to prove that you're COVID antigen-free? TBH, I'd rather have multiple needle jabs into my arm than have someone clean my nose with a long stick. So, rather than getting vaccinated, you're suggesting everyone getting tested with the rapid test kit before they can enter the building. With 20,000 fans going in to watch a hockey game, do you think they can seat everyone before the game ends? Also, even if you're tested 24-48 hours with a negative result, what makes you think you won't be infected within that time frame? C'mon, where's the common sense here? The vaccine and masks are there to not only protect you, but others that you come in close proximity to elsewhere.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

With the recent news of the disappointing efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant over time the issue is probably academic.

We are all royally screwed.

Efficacy against severe outcomes, hospitalization, and even just symptomatic infection remains very high, and while efficacy against non-symptomatic infection dropped significantly in one study, it's still significantly higher than having no vaccine.

This is not academic, and we are not screwed. Vaccines are and continue to be our way forward towards turning COVID into something that will have no detrimental impact on hospitalizations and overall health.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

Double vaccinated patients are ending up in the hospital. It's going to continue to happen as the virus mutates. I'm not saying the vaccines don't work by any means. I'm just using it as an argument to say that a vaccinated person is not necessarily less of a risk to the crowd than a non-vaccinated person with a negative test. Therefore, those people should not be discriminated against, whether it's their choice not to get a vaccine or its a medical conditional as to why they can't get the vaccine.

Yes - this is true. But how many double vaccinated patients are NOT ending up in the hospital? That is the true efficacy. I think the % is in the mid to high 90s. To try and say, there are still breakthrough cases as some type of "AHA" moment is very embarrassing in front of the statistics.

The second part - I agree with you, however, you should have to pay out of your own pocket to get those tests completed. So you would rather pay $X a pop for a test for every event you want to attend rather than get vaccinated? Lol. k.

[Southside]

From Twitter @CTVCalgary

Are you a Calgary Flames season ticket holder? If so, would you be in in favour of the team adopting a similar stance to that of Winnipeg where only fully vaccinated fans would be permitted to attend games? Reach our to us on Twitter or at calgarydesk@bellmedia.ca #Flames #yyc

[Bourque's Twin]

Originally Posted by CSharp

So, why not just get vaccinated ahead of time and get your second dose at the specified time rather than have to get tested to prove that you're COVID antigen-free? TBH, I'd rather have multiple needle jabs into my arm than have someone clean my nose with a long stick. So, rather than getting vaccinated, you're suggesting everyone getting tested with the rapid test kit before they can enter the building. With 20,000 fans going in to watch a hockey game, do you think they can seat everyone before the game ends? Also, even if you're tested 24-48 hours with a negative result, what makes you think you won't be infected within that time frame? C'mon, where's the common sense here? The vaccine and masks are there to not only protect you, but others that you come in close proximity to elsewhere.

That's your choice. Go and get 100 vaccines if you like. I'm not suggesting everyone should get tested. That is impractical for most people. However, I don't see the danger to society if those who choose to get tested a certain timeframe before the event, go and do that. The federal government is allowing people to enter the country with a negative test 72 hours before arriving.

Canada is a place of freedom. If someone is proven to test negative for Covid, they are technically not a health risk and should not be discriminated against for attending an event.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

That's your choice. Go and get 100 vaccines if you like. I'm not suggesting everyone should get tested. That is impractical for most people. However, I don't see the danger to society if those who choose to get tested a certain timeframe before the event, go and do that. The federal government is allowing people to enter the country with a negative test 72 hours before arriving.

Canada is a place of freedom. If someone is proven to test negative for Covid, they are technically not a health risk and should not be discriminated against for attending an event.

You can test negative and then get the virus 5 minutes later.

[14Roman14]

Originally Posted by Thor

Let's not forget this virus is not just about survival rate, the damage this virus does to a very significant % of those who survive it includes all kinds of long-term health issues, lungs, heart, etc..

This is not some unstudied issue either, we first started looking at covid variants near 2000, the vaccine itself is based on research from the mid 0's and has lots of studies behind it already.

Spoiler!

These vaccines and what's in them are well studied, well understood and we have used them on hundreds of millions at this point, so any risk or side effects are already well known, and they are minuscule. The risk of harm from the virus to people, death being the worst, complications after contracting it are very serious and it's not just about individual choice since it's a pandemic, a public health crisis. We are trying to save lives, save the health of people, and it is a small ask to get a jab with an incredibly safe vaccine to protect yourself and your loved ones and those who can't get the vaccines.

And in a year if this vaccine starts causing harm to those who took it and weighs down our amazing healthcare system worse than the symptoms of covid itself did, then what?
When have we ever released a vaccine onto the population after 6 months of human trials? One that is mRNA based that uses a spike protein that is like no other vaccine ever used on the human population? Yes it has been used by millions at this point. It already has more negative side effects than all other vaccines combined in the last 20 years like myocarditis, Bell’s palsy, paralysis, rashes, and death. And we won’t know the long term effects for years.
Again anyone that feels comfortable with it and thinks the benefits outweigh the risks, great, feel free and get your chance at that dirty million. Anyone who isn't opposed of it forever but feels there needs to be more that 6 months of data before being released onto the population, great don’t take it.
But to say we know with certainty that there won’t be long term effects from the rushed vaccine that are worse for our healthcare system is unknown.
I’ve had the virus, my wife had the virus bad, my sisters whole family had the virus. We have natural immunity. In our mind it is not something to fear. I know people who have had it had it affect them more, even one fella that passed from it. Unfortunately truth is that those people had underlying issues where any respiratory illness like the flu or pneumonia would have been very hard on them. The fella I knew that passed was in his 60’s but drank, smoked, and did hard drugs a good portion of his life. Not saying he deserved to pass on, just that he was harder on his body than most and that he would have had a harder time fighting off any illness.
At this point if so many are already vaccinated(between 70-75 percent I believe) and likely another 10-15 percent of unvaccinated that would have natural immunity, that only leaves 10 percent of Albertans unprotected in accordance to the masses. Remember though that those 10 percent still have an immune system and the main treatment for covid all along was stay home, drink chicken noodle soup, and isolate for 14 days and build natural immunity then continue on with life.
Why are the vaccinated so scared of those 10 percent at a hockey game with them? Do you not trust the vaccine to protect you? And if not don’t you think they should have done a better job of making a vaccine that stopped you from getting it and spreading it, not just making the symptoms less.
All in all I still think it is a slippery slope to start segregating a population on medical choices. Especially one that has been so politicized and offered so much debate and flip flopping from medical professionals and political leaders who have seen both sides.
Remember those images that came out early on fromChina that showed people lying dead in the street from this? Did that actually happen or was that to promote fear in the masses?
I very much hope I am wrong but what if this was the plan from the start for governments and elites to gain control over populations? To see who listens and who doesn’t and reward those who are controlled and punish those who aren’t.
If that’s the case or not I hope everyone remembers how to treat others and that we are all human regardless of vaccination status.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

That's your choice. Go and get 100 vaccines if you like. I'm not suggesting everyone should get tested. That is impractical for most people. However, I don't see the danger to society if those who choose to get tested a certain timeframe before the event, go and do that. The federal government is allowing people to enter the country with a negative test 72 hours before arriving.

Canada is a place of freedom. If someone is proven to test negative for Covid, they are technically not a health risk and should not be discriminated against for attending an event.

You'd have to test negative on site. Even with rapid testing, that's going to add up to an undoable wait period for unvaccinated people. Who bares the cost of all the testing? And what happens if one slips through (the tests aren't 100% accurate, and often are less accurate during the early stages of infection)?

From an operational perspective, simply requiring proof of vaccination is much easier than allowing some sort of arcane testing regiment. Offsite testing is out of the question.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

With the recent news of the disappointing efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant over time the issue is probably academic.

We are all royally screwed.

This is the issue I think some people aren't understanding. All the previous restrictions and what we did was for the initial strain. The mutation should be looked at as a game changer. Calling for the end of covid was premature as the goal posts have moved with Delta. If Delta wasn't around we wouldn't even be having this conversation and cases would probably be in the single digits. Unfortunately that is not reality.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No, that’s precisely what I was saying. States (as opposed to local government) were held to hold the power. So they can impose mandates or block mandates from lower governments (or arguably federal mandates if they intrude on state power). It wasn’t a human rights challenge - it was a states right challenge. In Canada, of course, such powers are differently allocated.

Well actually you said "states could choose not to have such mandates". Which is true, but not the whole truth. They can make the mandate illegal for private businesses.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Efficacy against severe outcomes, hospitalization, and even just symptomatic infection remains very high, and while efficacy against non-symptomatic infection dropped significantly in one study, it's still significantly higher than having no vaccine.

This is not academic, and we are not screwed. Vaccines are and continue to be our way forward towards turning COVID into something that will have no detrimental impact on hospitalizations and overall health.

Was being mostly facetious.

But it does seem the war against COVID is one step forward and ten steps back and the anti vaxxers are doing their part to ensure this thing is not going away any time soon.

It could be years until we see a full return to normal.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Robbob

This is the issue I think some people aren't understanding. All the previous restrictions and what we did was for the initial strain. The mutation should be looked at as a game changer. Calling for the end of covid was premature as the goal posts have moved with Delta. If Delta wasn't around we wouldn't even be having this conversation and cases would probably be in the single digits. Unfortunately that is not reality.

Just read the post two above- there is not anything you can do to rationalize this with people who are so vehemently against scientific consensus and reason. MHB is right, we are screwed. These folks are going to incubate us an even worse variant, I have no doubt.

[Bunk]

Indeed, the concept in Canada is called "reasonable accommodation". There is endless precedent for it for this very reason. Rights are not absolute, there are trade offs between different rights, and reasonable limitations to rights because of things like public health and the greater good of society. Do people not understand this?

Originally Posted by bzoo02

I don't think anyone here has a problem with the group that medically can't get vaccinated.

In fact, that's the point. That's why every person who CAN get vaccinated should. To protect those who CAN'T!.

[TheIronMaiden]

Nice thing abut getting vaccinated is I don't care one way or the other.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

And in a year if this vaccine starts causing harm to those who took it and weighs down our amazing healthcare system worse than the symptoms of covid itself did, then what?
When have we ever released a vaccine onto the population after 6 months of human trials? One that is mRNA based that uses a spike protein that is like no other vaccine ever used on the human population? Yes it has been used by millions at this point. It already has more negative side effects than all other vaccines combined in the last 20 years like myocarditis, Bell’s palsy, paralysis, rashes, and death. And we won’t know the long term effects for years.

I'd be interested in seeing your source for this (if any). I've done cursory research and it seems extremely obvious that the very very small risk of an adverse vaccine reaction is heavily outweighed by the chance of a similarly severe reaction from contracting covid.

Here is my source, could be worthwhile reading: https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...es-of-COVID-19

As for the long term effects, without even going into the likelihood regarding that, what about the long term effects of covid? It is well established that there are potentially severe long term outcomes, but you are willing to chance that instead of a vaccine?

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

And in a year if this vaccine starts causing harm to those who took it and weighs down our amazing healthcare system worse than the symptoms of covid itself did, then what?
When have we ever released a vaccine onto the population after 6 months of human trials? One that is mRNA based that uses a spike protein that is like no other vaccine ever used on the human population?

Let me cut you short and just link you to this:

The long road to mRNA vaccines
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/52424.html

mRNA vaccines have been studied for a long time. I don't know the full details but frankly...I don't give a damn because I'm not a Dr./PhD or in the medical industry. Instead, I trust their word.

I mean isn't it easier to believe the doctors/PhD's rather than some random on the internet saying "not enough tests!!11"??

The speed at which the vaccine was released just goes to show the technological advancements in the field and the worldwide cooperation to fight against the pandemic. Isn't that much easier to believe that an insane conspiracy theory?

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

That's your choice. Go and get 100 vaccines if you like. I'm not suggesting everyone should get tested. That is impractical for most people. However, I don't see the danger to society if those who choose to get tested a certain timeframe before the event, go and do that. The federal government is allowing people to enter the country with a negative test 72 hours before arriving.

Canada is a place of freedom. If someone is proven to test negative for Covid, they are technically not a health risk and should not be discriminated against for attending an event.

I'm not sure why freedom has to come into play here. Yeah, it's a freedom to get sick but your freedom and someone else's freedom doesn't exist if you go to the hospital and die from COVID variants. A lot of good freedom does after that point. That argument is kind of moot if protecting a population from getting seriously ill vs protecting the free will of a few. Eventually, for your argument's sake, protecting everyone will provide more freedom for us all!

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

Double vaccinated patients are ending up in the hospital. It's going to continue to happen as the virus mutates. I'm not saying the vaccines don't work by any means. I'm just using it as an argument to say that a vaccinated person is not necessarily less of a risk to the crowd than a non-vaccinated person with a negative test. Therefore, those people should not be discriminated against, whether it's their choice not to get a vaccine or its a medical conditional as to why they can't get the vaccine.

It's the passive aggressive, victimhood take that it's being discriminated against. I mean seriously.

People are not being discriminated against, they are actively choosing to exclude themselves from options. Like people who choose to drink alcohol, are choosing not to drive. They're not being discriminated against.

[14Roman14]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Yes - this is true. But how many double vaccinated patients are NOT ending up in the hospital? That is the true efficacy. I think the % is in the mid to high 90s. To try and say, there are still breakthrough cases as some type of "AHA" moment is very embarrassing in front of the statistics.

The second part - I agree with you, however, you should have to pay out of your own pocket to get those tests completed. So you would rather pay $X a pop for a test for every event you want to attend rather than get vaccinated? Lol. k.

How does the hospitalization rates affect any vaccinated person attending a hockey game? If anything the unvaccinated person should be tentative to go as there could be any vaccinated carriers there that show no symptoms but are shedding the virus. Even without the vaccine the hospitalization per number of covid cases was minute. The cure for most was stay home, isolate, drink chicken noodle soup and then carry on as per normal after the immune system did it’s thing.