[News] Upd: Canadian NHL Teams to require proof of vaccination to attend any arena events

[zamler]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Well for one didn't think the first part needed green text
2. You brought up the idea by saying it as a hypothetical of putting people in camps . What the hell else could be talking about other than internment camps

That's exactly what I am saying. Canada put people in camps at one time even though these people did nothing wrong. That's what I am talking about, not the attempted extermination of an entire group of people. Cripes, talk about a bad faith way of debating.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by AC

I don't think anti vaxxers should be locked up, but I fully support not allowing them into venues like this.

I didn't think I need Green text for that .

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

That's exactly what I am saying. Canada put people in camps at one time even though these people did nothing wrong. That's what I am talking about, not the attempted extermination of an entire group of people. Cripes, talk about a bad faith way of debating.

And yet this was OK:

"you hope everyone that gets covid and is not vaccinated dies."

Got it.

[AC]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

I didn't think I need Green text for that .

Oh, I wasn't replying to you.

It was in regards to zamler's "To be clear, we lock people up that break the law, are you saying it should be law to get vaccinated and if you don't, your freedoms are taken away?"

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

You said this:

"you hope everyone that gets covid and is not vaccinated dies."

Which I never said.
Which I did refute.

Again not so much fun when someone does it to you eh?

Explain what you mean when you say F people that are not vaccinated they can stay home, the rest of us get to do whatever we want. And forgive me for wondering about the level of your vitriol, you come across as outright loathing anyone that doesn't get their shots. It comes across as absolute hatred.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

That's exactly what I am saying. Canada put people in camps at one time even though these people did nothing wrong. That's what I am talking about, not the attempted extermination of an entire group of people. Cripes, talk about a bad faith way of debating.

Canada put people in camps over something they were.

A. No one is putting anti vaxxers in camps.
B. Any action that affects anti-vaxxers is based on something they did (or rather didn’t do). Consequences of actions, not of intrinsic traits.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Boreal

What basic common understanding do you not grasp that it is a privilege to enter any privately owned operation it isn’t your right.

I repeat, freedom of movement is a basic human right. We are talking about the government passing laws requiring people to carry a vaccination passport in order to enter private places.

Privilege breeds entitlement. You’re entitled, I get it.

You know absolute ####-all about me.

The government is the only entity that can effectively organize operations that private businesses are requesting.

All private businesses are requesting this? I happen to know that's not true. But the government will be applying the law to all private businesses and all citizens, whether they like it or not.

It won’t be perfect and if they don’t do it trying to fill the gap privately will be a mess and a calamity.

The Gulag Archipelago was a calamity. The COVID pandemic, by comparison, pales to an inconvenience. Setting up the laws to recreate the former is not a valid means of mitigating the latter. Sometimes the cure is much worse than the disease.

Freedom of movement does not mean you can just walk into anyone’s property.
Because you can’t walk into any privately owned operation also doesn’t mean you have to stay at home.

If you are forbidden to enter any place of business or any public building without a vaccine passport, your freedom of movement is gone. All it takes is for the government to revoke your passport, or refuse to issue you one, and you are under effective house arrest.

Freedom of association doesn’t mean you get to associate wherever you please.
It also doesn’t mean you can’t associate in private spaces.

If there is nowhere that you are allowed to associate, then you do not have freedom of association.

No state agency is trampling on these mythical rights of yours, vaccine passport or otherwise. They don’t exist. Maybe try a new tinfoil hat.

I told you to look up ‘social credit China’ and ‘Soviet internal passport’. You obviously did not.

Tens of millions of Chinese have been denied the ‘privilege’ of buying train, plane, or mass transit tickets because the government bureaux that keep their (secret) ‘social credit’ scores have blacklisted them. If you are blacklisted, you have no legal recourse.

Tens of millions of Soviet citizens were forbidden to travel at all for decades, because you were not permitted to travel without an internal passport and the officials responsible refused to issue such passports to whole classes of people.

But thanks for attempting to denigrate my family and work while we keep putting out our efforts on the front lines of Covid to keep the ignorant, entitled, and privileged alive.

I don't know a damned thing about your family or your work and don't pretend to. (Whereas you pretend to know everything there is to know about me and mine. Funny, that.) And you know what? If the price of your alleged help is to be called ‘ignorant, entitled, and privileged’, I don't want it. Quit for all I care.

Quite Nobel. Why don’t you name the “state agencies” on “your list.”

Any state agency is capable of oppressing people if the laws are written to allow it – or if the officials of that agency are allowed to break the law without punishment. Both these things are depressingly common in human history, and you do not have to look far to find examples even today.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

Explain what you mean when you say F people that are not vaccinated they can stay home, the rest of us get to do whatever we want.

Well I certainly didn't mean I hope they die.
That's a pretty big leap.

So again - if you have a problem with people putting words in your mouth maybe don't do it to other people yourself.

[GioforPM]

“Freedom of movement” doesn’t mean freedom to go anywhere you want. It’s a Charter right (section 6) aimed at moving from one province to another to work. And all Charter rights are subject to reasonable restrictions anyway.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Not going to lie, I read through this whole trash thread. Jay random and fire it up talk about all this data they have seen. Haven’t provided a lick. Happy to pick apart other people’s arguments saying show me the data. Many people provided it and they haven’t responded at all to the data. Instead they have moved to personal attacks.

The true anti-vaccine , vaccine hesitant playbook is out in fool force

I should point out here that I am fully vaccinated. But there is no vaccine against a government office refusing to provide a necessary service, and no recourse when it happens. I've been there before and never want to go through it again.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“Freedom of movement” doesn’t mean freedom to go anywhere you want.

Why would you think this at all? It means the same freedoms as every other citizen in good lawful standing.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“Freedom of movement” doesn’t mean freedom to go anywhere you want. It’s a Charter right (section 6) aimed at moving from one province to another to work. And all Charter rights are subject to reasonable restrictions anyway.

Freedom of movement is not a right conferred by the Charter. It is recognized under international human-rights law and applies everywhere that basic human rights are respected. It applies even in non-federal states, where by definition the problem of moving from province to province cannot arise.

But you, as a lawyer who by your own admission can't recognize the distinction between legality and morality, could not be expected to understand this.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

Why would you think this at all? It means the same freedoms as every other citizen in good lawful standing.

Why would I think this? Because it’s what the Charter says. And because government restricts movement all the time, including stopping some citizens from doing things other citizens can do.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well I certainly didn't mean I hope they die.
That's a pretty big leap.

So again - if you have a problem with people putting words in your mouth maybe don't do it to other people yourself.

How do you think we should solve the problem of people not wanting to get their shots? Force them by law? If not, why do you think people making that choice should be shut ins while the rest of us "get on with our lives" as you put it.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Why would I think this? Because it’s what the Charter says. And because government restricts movement all the time, including stopping some citizens from doing things other citizens can do.

Like what?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Freedom of movement is not a right conferred by the Charter. It is recognized under international human-rights law and applies everywhere that basic human rights are respected. It applies even in non-federal states, where by definition the problem of moving from province to province cannot arise.

But you, as a lawyer who by your own admission can't recognize the distinction between legality and morality, could not be expected to understand this.

What total BS.

And no, that’s not what “freedom of movement” means at all. Show your work.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If we had collectively done more of the right things we would be far closer to the end of this.

See, there's part of your problem. There is no end. COVID is here to stay. It is already mutating out of control and will continue to do so. At some point it will be reclassified from a pandemic to an endemic disease (if sanity prevails), but the disease itself will not go away. That means that whatever ‘emergency’ measures you take now will become permanent unless the political will exists to revoke them.

(Income tax in Canada was a temporary emergency measure in 1917, to deal with the cost of World War I. Apparently that emergency isn't over yet.)

In all of human history, only two viral diseases have been eradicated: smallpox and rinderpest. Both of them were slow-mutating pathogens for which a single vaccination could confer lifelong immunity. COVID, in terms of epidemiology, is much more like the flu.

I'm all in favour of vaccination for those who can get it. I am not in favour of setting up an omnipotent bureaucracy that can exclude people from society simply by refusing to issue them a document. History shows again and again that nobody can be trusted with that kind of power.

[GioforPM]

Read and learn, Jay.

https://www.lawnow.org/freedom-of-mo...ring-covid-19/

Freedom of movement is aimed at moving your residence, not going to a movie or a game.

[AC]

I agree we should be wary of the government mandating or forcing privately businesses or venues to comply with their vaccination requirements for attendance.

I do however think more businesses should choose to implement those requirements themselves. I'll be disappointed if the Flames don't follow the Jets' example here.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What total BS.

That's what I'd expect you to say.

And no, that’s not what “freedom of movement” means at all. Show your work.

Here's the basic definition given by Wikipedia:

Freedom of movement, mobility rights, or the right to travel is a human rights concept encompassing the right of individuals to travel from place to place within the territory of a country, and to leave the country and return to it. The right includes not only visiting places, but changing the place where the individual resides or works.

If you are forbidden from entering each and every place within the territory of your country, you do not have freedom of movement. We have already seen our government forbid us to enter each other's homes. The express purpose of the vaccination passport is to forbid people to enter businesses and public buildings unless they are carrying the required document – and there is no guarantee that such a document will be issued if properly applied for.

I've known enough people whose basic human rights were denied because the Canadian government refused to provide them with necessary documents. If you want to be one of those people, nobody is stopping you; but you're a damned selfish fool if you want to impose that on everyone else.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Read and learn, Jay.

https://www.lawnow.org/freedom-of-mo...ring-covid-19/

Freedom of movement is aimed at moving your residence, not going to a movie or a game.

I quote from your link:

Human rights are interdependent. Therefore, the right to freedom of movement is not absolute and can be restricted when needed for the public’s health. Article 12(3) of the ICCPR allows restrictions on the right to freedom of movement for reasons of public health and national emergency. However, these restrictions must be lawful, necessary and proportionate. “Restrictions such as mandatory quarantine or isolation of symptomatic people must, at a minimum, be carried out in accordance with the law”.

In addition, according to the Siracusa Principles – principles that determine the conditions under which restrictions on civil liberties are justified – any steps taken to protect the public and limit people’s rights and freedoms must be “legal, proportionate and necessary”. These measures have to be limited in time and need to take into consideration their impact on vulnerable and marginalized groups.

Requiring people to carry a vaccination passport everywhere they go, or be denied entry to any building, is not limited in time, does not take into consideration any impact on vulnerable or marginalied groups, and even if it became lawful, is neither necessary nor proportionate.