BC to become first province with prescribed safe supply

[Traditional_Ale]

I think the problem is that opioid manufacturers (otherwise known as big pharma) have doctors so thoroughly in their pocket I'd call it criminal. Way too much incentive and kickback for doctors to keep pushing the stuff even when entirely inappropriate. And because of a lack of funding for healthcare people are being discharged from the hospital too soon. I've had a couple hernias over the years and they prescribed me an insane amount of percocet, which aside from the first day I didn't use because I was afraid of getting hooked.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Poor thing.
If the jobs too tough for you quit.

The #### is wrong with you?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't get the hesitation about the government handing out drugs. If it's cheaper than using healthcare and emergency services to deal with ODs, and the drugs are safer so there are fewer ODs in the first place, where's your concern?

It remains to be seen if it will result in fewer ODs. If it does, great. But if it just results in a net increase in usage, and ODs don’t go down, then we’ll need to rethink the plan.

These things don’t always turn out the way well-intentioned, law-abiding types expect. Remember when pot was being legalized, and a lot of people on this forum ridiculed the notion that the black market and local dealers would endure once people could readily buy legal pot in stores? And yet here we are three years later, and legal sales have only recently crept past the amount bought from Terry.

Two lessons from that.

A lot of people who use drugs want to get as high as possible, and will always choose a more potent over a less potent option.

The illegal drug trade is extraordinarily efficient, able to get product to buyers more readily than any commercial or government-run outlet.

[Blaster86]

Anything that can help this problem has to be on the table at this point and I am glad to see the Government isn't shying away from making some, what may be seen by some as radical, choices to try and combat it.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I think the problem is that opioid manufacturers (otherwise known as big pharma) have doctors so thoroughly in their pocket I'd call it criminal. Way too much incentive and kickback for doctors to keep pushing the stuff even when entirely inappropriate. And because of a lack of funding for healthcare people are being discharged from the hospital too soon. I've had a couple hernias over the years and they prescribed me an insane amount of percocet, which aside from the first day I didn't use because I was afraid of getting hooked.

This has thankfully changed quite a bit. It's become much harder to get opioids recent. There was definitely a time about five years ago where they would give them out like candy. I remember my partner getting a half liter bottle of codeine infused cough syrup for a cough.

Unfortunately, the pull back in pharmaceutical grade opioids has been met with a massive surge in synthetic ones from China (ex fentanyl). In the past dealers had to rely on supply chains from central Asia. Now they can just order the stuff online, and packets full of fentanyl will show up at their door. This really is a global crisis.

[PaperBagger'14]

If the system they design was to supply people free drugs with the intention of weening them off safely, as well as counseling, affordable home services and job placements, I would be 100% for this.

This would also require the ability to test for concentration of drugs in a person's system to assure they aren't buying black market and using the public purse to supplement their addiction, which is sadly what many addicts would do.

There is a way to make this work, carte blanche free drugs for all isn't the answer, neither is imprisoning addicts with non violent crimes.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The #### is wrong with you?

he's long gone

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If the system they design was to supply people free drugs with the intention of weening them off safely, as well as counseling, affordable home services and job placements, I would be 100% for this.

This would also require the ability to test for concentration of drugs in a person's system to assure they aren't buying black market and using the public purse to supplement their addiction, which is sadly what many addicts would do.

There is a way to make this work, carte blanche free drugs for all isn't the answer, neither is imprisoning addicts with non violent crimes.

my guess is they will run it as a sort of hybrid methadone safe injection site model, add a heroin vending machine at the safe injection sight and requires users to register and set up a consumption level probably require a doctors involvement

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah, the Just Say No crap messed with me for a long time.

Remember this? I can still hear the guys voice, too.

Spoiler!

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It remains to be seen if it will result in fewer ODs. If it does, great. But if it just results in a net increase in usage, and ODs don’t go down, then we’ll need to rethink the plan.

These things don’t always turn out the way well-intentioned, law-abiding types expect. Remember when pot was being legalized, and a lot of people on this forum ridiculed the notion that the black market and local dealers would endure once people could readily buy legal pot in stores? And yet here we are three years later, and legal sales have only recently crept past the amount bought from Terry.

Two lessons from that.

A lot of people who use drugs want to get as high as possible, and will always choose a more potent over a less potent option.

The illegal drug trade is extraordinarily efficient, able to get product to buyers more readily than any commercial or government-run outlet.

Sure but let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good. It’s pretty obvious a different strategy is needed especially support and mental health in advance for people that need it so that you can prevent drug use if possible before it occurs.

What we’re doing isn’t working, time to switch it up and this is welcome. We can always go back to what we have now if this doesn’t work / reduce OD’s.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hopefully close! All that stuff sounds fantastic.

The government doesn’t have to be all things to all people and sometimes personal responsibility is welcome. On this topic I agree the government needs to obviously step in but suggesting we need to ramp up taxes to 80% and have the government massively inefficiently solve all of our problems sounds like a nightmare. I think it sounds brutal, actually especially given any of our country’s current political parties and liking they take to corruption.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If the system they design was to supply people free drugs with the intention of weening them off safely, as well as counseling, affordable home services and job placements, I would be 100% for this.

This would also require the ability to test for concentration of drugs in a person's system to assure they aren't buying black market and using the public purse to supplement their addiction, which is sadly what many addicts would do.

There is a way to make this work, carte blanche free drugs for all isn't the answer, neither is imprisoning addicts with non violent crimes.

I agree with everything you said. However, currently, I don’t think regions would have the capability or money to complete such a task. Shelters are probably the best spot to place such a program as it’s “ground zero” for many people with addictions, as well as having outreach workers centralized at the shelter. But shelters don’t get enough money to even really think about implementing such a plan. The closest thing I’ve personally seen is personnel and staff attempting to find room rentals and housing placements for residents. That’s difficult enough. I think affordable housing is the best place to start, called the “Housing First Theory.”

Another topic that can be discussed is the difficulty of finding current programs and assistance packages. At least in Ontario, there’s many programs available to those in need; however, the assistance is a ####ing hassle. Phone tag, extremely long wait lines, and heavy decentralization of programs/assistance makes it difficult for one to access such things. If the local or provincial government completely took over such programs, I think it’d be even worse, however that’s just my opinion. It’s a complex issue, one that I have no answer for.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It remains to be seen if it will result in fewer ODs. If it does, great. But if it just results in a net increase in usage, and ODs don’t go down, then we’ll need to rethink the plan.

These things don’t always turn out the way well-intentioned, law-abiding types expect. Remember when pot was being legalized, and a lot of people on this forum ridiculed the notion that the black market and local dealers would endure once people could readily buy legal pot in stores? And yet here we are three years later, and legal sales have only recently crept past the amount bought from Terry.

Two lessons from that.

A lot of people who use drugs want to get as high as possible, and will always choose a more potent over a less potent option.

The illegal drug trade is extraordinarily efficient, able to get product to buyers more readily than any commercial or government-run outlet.

The reason most people were wrong, and the lesson from that, is that the government chose to tax the ever-loving crap out of the industry before it could get established. Of course people will stick with the cheap option, when taxes are close to 30%. Taxes for vape products are 50%. The government was warned not to do this so they could stamp out the black market, but they ignored that advice, and, well, here we are. The lesson is, our government is run by morons.



https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.co...vape-products/

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The reason most people were wrong, and the lesson from that, is that the government chose to tax the ever-loving crap out of the industry before it could get established. Of course people will stick with the cheap option, when taxes are close to 30%. Taxes for vape products are 50%. The government was warned not to do this so they could stamp out the black market, but they ignored that advice, and, well, here we are. The lesson is, our government is run by morons.



https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.co...vape-products/

Also, comparing legalizing cannabis and operating as a marketplace for it with a program where the government is targeting people with a health problem, and using a prescription-based approach is either really dumb or disingenuous.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Also, comparing legalizing cannabis and operating as a marketplace for it with a program where the government is targeting people with a health problem, and using a prescription-based approach is either really dumb or disingenuous.

You can't high road people for comparing one previously illegal drug to another currently illegal drug. They are directly comparable when it comes to the governments ability to make them available at the same cost and efficacy.

I know you also have me blocked, so kiss my ass you chud

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I know you also have me blocked, so kiss my ass you chud

You really think you're that important to me?

[jayswin]

lol

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The reason most people were wrong, and the lesson from that, is that the government chose to tax the ever-loving crap out of the industry before it could get established. Of course people will stick with the cheap option, when taxes are close to 30%. Taxes for vape products are 50%. The government was warned not to do this so they could stamp out the black market, but they ignored that advice, and, well, here we are. The lesson is, our government is run by morons.



https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.co...vape-products/

But taxing pot to generate government revenue was one of the justifications - probably the biggest - for legalization in the first place. If the plan at the outset was to tax it at only 5 per cent, legalization wouldn’t have had anywhere near the public and institutional support.

The most appealing argument in favor of legalization of marijuana is the increased tax revenue that it would bring to the Canadian economy. Legalizing marijuana provides an important advantage over prohibition because it allows for the Government to collect taxes from the legalized drug. Specifically, high demand for recreational marijuana in Canada indicates that legalization of the drug would yield significant tax revenue. The free market price of marijuana is estimated to be particularly low without taxation. This allows for the Government to impose higher taxes on marijuana while keeping the price at a competitive level with other intoxicants (eg, alcohol and tobacco).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4968247/

And taxes are only one of the expenses commercial growers and retailers have above those of the black market. Infrastructure, regulation, licensing, employee benefits, marketing - all the costs legitimate businesses have that Terry doesn’t. Legal commercial pot just can’t compete with the black market when it comes to heavy and price-sensitive users.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Lol not this crap again.

Black market pot is for losers. Legal pot shops are bustling with business and are an unquestionable overwhelming success. They have awesome prices too.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But taxing pot to generate government revenue was one of the justifications - probably the biggest - for legalization in the first place. If the plan at the outset was to tax it at only 5 per cent, legalization wouldn’t have had anywhere near the public and institutional support.

And taxes are only one of the expenses commercial growers and retailers have above those of the black market. Infrastructure, regulation, licensing, employee benefits, marketing - all the costs legitimate businesses have that Terry doesn’t. Legal commercial pot just can’t compete with the black market when it comes to heavy and price-sensitive users.

That was just governments being dumb and greedy. Yes, taxes were a part of the sales job, but no one thought they would be as high as they are.

The debate over taxing marijuana comes amid warnings from the federal budget watchdog that high taxes on the drug will only boost the illegal market.

According to the Parliamentary Budget Officer, governments have little leeway to tax marijuana and remain competitive with unlicensed producers. The PBO estimated in a report last year that legal cannabis would cost about $7.50 a gram before taxes, compared with $8.80 for illicit cannabis.

"The government may have little fiscal space to apply tax without pushing the price of legal cannabis significantly above the illegal market price," the PBO report said.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle36497799/

Industrial legal pot production has many benefits over illegal stuff as well. Much easier to market to customers, and economies of scale in massive farms make sit hard for smaller illegal operations to compete. Yes, there are other cost, but 30% tax on your product is by far the largest handicap.

Had they wanted the tax dollars so badly, they should have started with a very low tax to crush the black market, then they could tax a larger portion of sales. But greedy governments got greedy, and now you attempt to ignore a huge cost difference as the reason why the black market still exists. This is all pretty basic obvious stuff.